Free French and Polish Forces

[JerseyJohn]

Adapted from the Spanish Topic begun by Edwin P. and expanded upon in this Thread.

===

There has been much discussion over the months concerning the practice of having French troops and aircraft make a mass exodus from both France and her colonies to become Free French Units after the fall of Paris.

While this helps serve a game purpose it is neither historically accurate nor particularly good for the game as it often serves to accelerate the French collapse.

As pointed out in the Spanish Thread by Immer Etwas, the Free French option can be disabled, but this, being an all or nothing solution, is neither particularly desirable or historically accurate.

I'd like to explore an alternative solution:

An earlier suggestion was to award the UK a percentage in MPPs of the final French military value. That sum can then be applied to the UK OB. Ideally this would be done in a way that specifies it needs to be placed in units. Or perhaps the computer can go one better and have a Free French HQ (DeGaule) appear in Britain (this would not be part of the awarded sum but a bonus unit) along with the nearest amount in UK MPP value expressed in Army sized units with the excess MPPs added to the UK total.

This would help Britain without encouraging an unrealistic exodus from France. French Air and Naval units, regardless of their location, would vanish from play with the Fall of France and their MPP value added into the French base total to be converted into Free French units.

While it's true that many French and Poles flew with the R. A. F., I don't think they should be expressed as a designated airfleet. The same goes for naval units, there weren't really enough French Ships that went over to the Royal Navy to justify their inclusion as separate naval units: I think their MPP value converted into infantry would be much more useful to the UK which, after all, has it's own large Navy.

Once established in this manner, the Free French units would be UK colored and eligible for all the same anti-tank increases as other UK infantry. If and when France is liberated they would continue being treated as UK troops to avoid confusion and also to reflect the fact they really represent the Free Poles (there were a lot of them as well) and volunteers from other occupied nations.

In addition to being better for game play, I believe this solution would also be (to use a phrase Shaka and myself have coined) more Historically Responsible.

[ June 01, 2003, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Edwin P.]

How would the final French Military Value be determined?

[JerseyJohn]

As a percentage of all the French ground, air and naval units still in existence at the time France is knocked out of the war. The larger the number of French units the more Free French/Polish infantry that materializes in the UK.

It might also be a good idea if French research chits and advances are turned over to the UK; which would also true to history. Ultra, for example, went from Poland to France to Britain.

[ June 01, 2003, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Dan Fenton]

I do like the idea for a maximum number of units and for research.

However, I would like to see a minimum number of units go to the UK regardless of current conditions. Under you current proposal, if the French lose everything in a desperate attempt to stay alive, there would be no Free French units at all.

Also, historically the size of the Free French army grew prior to the liberation of Paris. How could one work that into the game, unless perhaps the entry of the US triggers more Free French units?

[Edwin P.]

I like the way that the game handles Free French units now as I like rushing the units to the port and then onto transports before Paris can fall to the Axis and I feel that if the Germans destroyed French units that none of their equipment and few of their troops would make it to France. (Its just more fun moving units).

I also find that the Free French corp units moved from Beruit and Algiers to the Suez is a key element in delaying any Axis conquest of Egypt.

I do like the idea of French units upgrading their Anti-Tank level to that of the UK as this would reflect the fact that they are using British Arms and are being trained by the Brits. It would also increase the incentive for the UK to invest in Anti-Tank technology.

I also like the idea of a DeGaulle HQ Bonus unit appearing in the UK, perhaps the chance of this happening could be based on how long Paris holds against the German onslaught?

[ June 01, 2003, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Shaka of Carthage]

I think JerseyJohn has come up with a very good idea.

We all know France is gonna fall. One way or the other. So in the back of our minds, we all worry about saving what we can when France does fall. So lets remove that incentive.

The number of Free French units (air, ground or sea) are randomly determined.

Now, I might as well have all my French units die fighting the Germans since the location of my units doesn't have anything to do with them becoming Free French. And once France falls, I lose them anyway.

In addition, as part of those randomly determined Free French units, we can get DeGaulle HQ. And as JerseyJohn pointed out, by them being UK units, any tech advances they would benefit from (o my god! French JETS??!).

Within the context of what Dan Fenton asked, you could use certain events to trigger additional Free French units and the Polish units in service to UK (and Russia). That random logic would be the same as that used to determine the number of Free French units UK initially got.

[Shaka of Carthage]

Edwin P

The thing about rushing your units to the port, may be fun, but its a game tactic. And even though a unit in SC may be "destroyed", not all of its manpower is gone.

As you pointed out, the Free French used British equipment. All of the French equipment was left in France. Once the Americans entered the war, especially once they got into North Africa, the Free French forces there adopted American equipment as well as organization (interesting, because the American organization was a copy of the French organization!).

[JerseyJohn]

Dan Fenton

-- "Under your current proposal, if the French lose everything in a desperate attempt to stay alive, there would be no Free French units at all. "

No! The exact opposite is true.

-- The larger France's combined Army, Navy and Air Force is the larger the number of Free French units that would be created.

-- The more advanced French research is at the time of it's collaps the greater the benefit to the U. K., and the larger the number of French Research chits at that time, the greater the number alloted to the UK.

The point of this rule would be to encourage the Allied Player to stay in France and Defend it with French Forces, which is what they did historically.

It might also be a good idea to automatically place half these Free French Units east of Alexandria as many French colonials and Polish veterans formed in North Africa. I'd recommend a system of 1st, 3rd, etc in UK, 2nd, 4th etc in Egypt. This would also help reflect the Commonwealth composition of the UK forces in North Africa.

[ June 02, 2003, 05:17 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[JerseyJohn]

Edwin

The French Army fought very hard after the British evacuation. German soldiers and generals said breaking the French lines involved some of the war's hardest fighting! It was do or die, life and death for their country as well as themselves. They didn't move troops and HQs to places like Brest for evacuation to Britain. Most of the still very large French Army remained and fought and was either killed or captured by the Germans.

I totally hate the way this is represented in the game! If the United States were ever invaded, which I hope it never will be, I'd hate to imagine U. S. troops making a mass exodus for Canada or Mexico before fighting in the county's defense. If that were the case I think I would personally run for president of Vichy U. S. A. as the invaders might be more concerned about the population than the troops that abandoned them!

There were two types of Free French and Polish units: The ones who evacuated with the British or were evacuated by the British prior to the collapse of France and who were neither reorganized nor reequipped to return to France before that country's surrender. And the ones who made their way to either England or North Africa after the French surrender, many of whom were actively fighting in France as the country was overrun. None of them simply abandoned the country and packed their bags.

French Air Units should also be encouraged to operate in France and not Britain -- what's that about? It never happened! With the French collapse, French air units stationed on UK territory should also vanish and the MPP value placed in the pool for Free French calculation.

[ June 02, 2003, 05:21 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[JerseyJohn]

Shaka

Glad you like the idea and thanks for helping to further define and correctly interpret the concept.

[Liam]

There is a possability that some French troops would've stayed in the frey, those who escaped or were saved. A mass exodus? Hmmm, not early... There is a fight to death in all of us, especially countries like France, Britian, US, Germany and Russia. Nationailism in all these majors is a big deal centuries ago and to this day.

Was just watching a movie about Czech Pilots in WW2, funny enough they were armed and prepared to fight the Germans and we didn't help them. I've heard they'd of put up a better fight than the Poles. I don't really think that's true but their mainline tank was as good as any of Germany's. They were all inturned in Camps after returning from England until 1991, I suppose Soviet worries of Western Ideology. Freedom and Democracy<which is what we strive for> is something praised by all Nations and men. That's why it's prevailed over such Infidels as the Third Reich, Communist Russia and all the threats before them. It's a human ideology, it's not perfect in practice but it's all we have. I think that people underscore the overall dislike of Russian, German presence in Europe period. Considering things like Allied Gambits even makes it worse we we cross it over. If I were a Democracy I wouldn't be happy if you invaded my neighbor. Their should be caps on this sort of thing and to make it a more realistic simulation we should give bonuses of resistance movements<intelligence>, partisans, decreased MPP booty and turn collection for certian nations. Despite Spain being ruled by Franco, after so a harsh civil war do you think they'd of surrendered with smiling faces to Germans and Italians their former allies?

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by Dan Fenton:

Also, historically the size of the Free French army grew prior to the liberation of Paris. How could one work that into the game, unless perhaps the entry of the US triggers more Free French units?

True, but the Free French NEVER grew to the extent that they had ANY impact on the War.

Some time ago I issued a challenge to any interested party: tell me in what way, and with what particular units... did the Free French have ANY impact on WW2?

No replies then. Now?

With the popularity... due mostly to intellectual disgust with the NEW human penchant for indifferent, long-distance slaughter, as at Hiroshima, Dresden, Hamburg or by way of V2 rocket attacks... of Existentialism , as shallowly propounded by the suddenly horrified Sartre & Camus

**(... as opposed to the GENUINE article as elaborated by such careful thinkers as Kirkegaard, Dostoevsky and the psychologist William James)

we have a false impression of the ACTUAL impact of French "underground"... and, due to this feel-good "Romance story," the French are presto! ELEVATED in the eyes of the wider world, thus alleviating various throes, gestalts, guilts and martial ineptitudes.

Well, be that as it may, and there is plenty of room for Thesis-sized debate on that philosophic issue, I still like JJ's idea of some unit appearing SOMEWHERE, even if in Limbo... better yet, Purgatory, what with France being a Catholic Nation... AND, his suggestion for a DeGaulle HQ unit (size... 2 or 3 max).

Dan Fenton's idea could be used, so that the Free French unit (and, tres petit DeGaulle) would appear in London WHEN the first American ground unit lands in Britain?

My own proposed solution would allow Free French as part of SPECIAL EVENTS. In the same way that our NEW! Commonwealth units (SA, NZ, Aussie & India) randomly appear at Suez. :cool:

It would be a "special event" that would allow Britain/USA to convert a very small portion of the FF army or navy (... but not AF).

It would be a "special event" that would place this unit in Britain.

As is, IMHO, the curtailment of the Free French is resisted, BECAUSE it is one of the FEW ways that the Allies have of countering the German Juggernaut... in THIS game.

Remove that rationale, and I am thinking that there would be considerably less support for the spurious Romantic notion, boosted by the UNDUE influence of that paltry version of Existentialism... of ANY French impact after June of 1940.

Or, alternately, you could have pre-determined arrival, say, in the way that other board games such as A3R will allow for unique units to appear at certain dates, and under certain circumstances.

[ June 02, 2003, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Immer Etwas ]

[Leopard]

Liam,

Was that movie about Czech pilots "Dark Blue Sky" or something like that? If so, I really enjoyed that movie. It has some excellent scenes featuring aerial combat.

[JerseyJohn]

Immer

A Great Posting, snaps much of this back to reality.

I agree that the rold of the Free French has been grossly overplayed. A large part of the problem is that the French Underground was cited extensively during the war for propaganda purposes.

The truth is, in games, we confuse the French Underground with the Free French forces.

The French Underground was very effective in smuggling information and occaisionally downed fliers to England, conducting small scale but often important sabotage and providing the British with important inteligence concerning German troop placement and movement.

The Free French armed forces had approximately the same importance as the Free Poles. In North Africa the each provided a hard fighting brigade to the Eighth Army. Free French and Poles also fought in the Italian Campaign alongside American and British/Commonwealth troops.

French and Polish airmen flew with the R. A. F.. It's wrong to have one or more Free French airfleets -- especially as they remain at L=0 or L=1 jet even while being reinforced! I guess this mean the Brits deliberately keep factories going that build old planes specifically for their Free French Allies while they alone fly the aircraft that aren't obsolete!

In truth the total numbers of French and Polish soldiers, sailors and airmen who fought on after June 1940 were much larger than would be indicated by the independant units they fielded in battle. That's because they were mainly organized as small units operating within larger UK formations. This made sense and was the best use of resources and manpower. Also, there was disagreement within these units as to who their own national leaders were.

During the Years of German occupation Charles De Gaule was a great propaganda tool for the Allies. The promise of national resurrection, as much as any actual military formations, provided the real importance of the Free French movement.

By 1944 there was a Polish Paratroop Brigade, originally intended to be dropped into Poland (an idiotic idea if ever there was one and probably a ruse to draw volunteers) which was eventually decimated at Arnhem. Several French Divisions were formed using surplus American equipment after the United States and Britain pushed into France and especially after they liberated Paris. They did see some action but primarily in support roles. Many American and British officers complained about the readiness of these troops to execute any and all German prisoners they came into possession of.

In the game we've got the potential for large Free French formations such as corps, armies, air fleets, HQs and naval units. As Immer says, it fills a need in the game, augmenting the scanty resources of the UK after the fall of France. But the same thing can be accomplished, and more realistically, by simply converting a portion of the final French military as described above, and having the one time appearance of Free French/Polish units in Britain and the Middle East.

I would be in favor of making it a single Army labelled French/Polish in England and a single corps with the same designation starting east of Alexandria. The units would be similar to the Canadians, off-color and irreplacable, but for all other game purposes they'd be UK units and would benefit from research advances.

Upon the fall of France, surplus MPPs above the cost of those two units derived from the final French Loss Pool, would be added to the UK MPP total.

French research advances and assigned research would also be transferred to the UK, representing French scientists and cryptogophers who boarded ships carrying their notes and crossed the channel, as many of them did historically.

-- This isn't meant as a put down of either French or Polish contributions to the war after their countries were occupied. And I'm sure Immer's is meant in the same light, it's only intended to bring the situation closer to it's historical reality.

[ June 02, 2003, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Shaka of Carthage]

Pretty much "ditto" what JerseyJohn said, with the addition that there were Free French forces fighting in Italy as well.

I actually have some numbers for Polish forces in WWII. Maybe the Free French. If you're interested, say something and I will post them.

I like the idea of Commonwealth forces appearing in Egypt based on special events. As long as it is historically accurate.

[Liam]

Leopard, yes it was. Depressing though...

[Panzer39]

I like this idea; However I would like to simplify it a bit further.

1. After the fall of France, the UK gets somewhere around 25% of the combined value of the remaining French units in France. For those units outside of France, the UK get somewhere around 35% of their total value.

2. These MPP's are nothing special and the UK can do whatever it wants with them.

3. De Gaule is added to the UK Generals list, but he has to be bought! Maybe make him cheaper than the rest.

4. Any research advances have a 75% percent chance of going to the UK, however they should also have a 25% chance of falling into German hands.

5. Any research chits in use would give 25% of their vaule MPP to the UK.

This is basically a reverse plunder system for France. It could also be used for the UK if it falls to the Axis with the reverse plunder going to the USA.

Thoughts?

[ June 02, 2003, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: Panzer39 ]

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

Originally posted by Leopard:

Liam,

Was that movie about Czech pilots "Dark Blue Sky" or something like that? If so, I really enjoyed that movie. It has some excellent scenes featuring aerial combat.

Dark Blue World

very good movie, have it on DVD

But as for British benefit of 'free' units

How about, after every allied Nation falls, (several turns after perhaps) there is a possibility of a new unit appearing in UK.

Poland Falls, Nov. 26 1939, ---> Feb 4, 1940, New 'Free Pole' Corps (or army) appears in UK at LOW strength.

Same goes for each country, maybe even have the certain types of units that appear be unique for different countries:

Czech = Corps or Air Fleet

Pole = Corps

French= Corps, HQ, Ships

Whadaya Think?

[JerseyJohn]

Panzer & CvM

You've both put forward excellent suggestions. I think all the ideas expressed so far are pretty much compatible and I'd like to see any combination of them in place of the present Free French system.

I especially like CvM's idea of assigning national identities and extending it to all conquered Allied nations. I'd be a bit hesitant about including air fleets in this category but if it's playable, why not.

Panzer's detailed ideas are very good. I particularly like the risk of technological advances falling into the conqueror’s hands instead of the Ally, though it's 75/25 that the Ally will get it. I also like making DeGaule an available UK general. Excellent.

It might be good to apply this to Italy as well. Historically Italian researchers were working on jet engines even before the war and many of them, after the fall of Italy, went to work for the Germans. I know it's hard to imagine a jet engine mounted on one of those Italian crates! But they did some good engine research and later in the war the Japanese were particularly fond of their designs. Using the 75/25, Italian research, which occasionally reaches high levels, would probably go to Germany but might also go over to the Allied nation that conquered her.

Great Ideas.

Shaka

Those figures would be great if you don't have to dig too much to find them. We've already got the Polish manpower figures in another Thread along with some terrific info on the Free Polish Forces and leaders.

[ June 02, 2003, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Liam]

I watched a show on Italian jets. Not bad! They were on their way... The Brits as well, I think??that Germany and Britian were the only nations to have had real Jet Aircraft serve with their Airforces by Wars end in some combat capacity.

Why do the German's inherit Yugoslavia's capitol at normal supply levels when it's a partisan nation like USSR? As well as Spain...should also be an explosive, guerilla type scenery. For either side that should DOW them. Including Ireland if they had a port? As I said before why does Albania get a PORT? Do something folks! Say SOMETHING! It's laughable what our game board is missing...

If the Suez falls into Axis hands, Iraq should coup to the Axis. Showing a balance favor towards them<which is historical> if the Allies invade too many Neutrals there should be MPP punishments from civil unrest at home, and unpopular war efforts...

[Shaka of Carthage]

Liam

The answer to your questions are simple.

Game balance.

[JerseyJohn]

Liam

It amazes me that you crammed so many topics into so short a posting!

Sure we've discussed all those things in other Topics, with the possible exception of Iraq having a coup if Suez falls to the Axis -- an odd assumption and circumstance but great as a hypothetical situation.

What amazes me is that you fail to recognize Albania's traditional place as the center of European activity and Tirana's position as Europe's most important harbor!

The items you mentioned do need to be fixed, but there are existing Topics where they've been covered already. You probably started a few of them yourself!

[ June 02, 2003, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Liam]

Shaka:

True, balance is: merely to cut down game time and add to playability? Or, was it cutting corners in game creation?

John:

Why thankyou John, I don't think I could compete you however Good Ole Chap. Tirana? Hmmm, I do know that Albania is classical poor<poorest nation in Europe>. If the port is there then the city shouldn't be and when you reflect upon on other places..i.e. Spain, Portugal, The Mighty Baltic Shipping Lanes. I suppose that the Balkans are highlighted as they were a big place in the War. However, in this game situations change and thus we need to change and adapt to make for more playability. Remeber what happened in our game when you tried to free Spain? Instant Death<as usual>, as despite Andalusia-Tago there is representation of great Trade from Iberia. Ten times more important than Tirana...

[JerseyJohn]

Liam

I think the main reason Tirana is always represented as a port in all the WW II European strategy games is so Italy can move units in and out of Albania. It doesn't compare with numerous other ports that are not even given a hex on the map. But it does have strategic significance.

I hope it is understood I was being facetious about Albania’s traditional role in Europe. Of course it was always wretchedly poor. Other than the Romanian Oil there isn’t too much to attract any major country to the Balkans – yet they’ve been fought over continuously for over a thousand years, which seems a bit odd.

And of course you can compete with me -- Good Old Chap! -- your What-ifs-of-SC is the all time classic addition with hundreds of postings covering thousands of years – on that Thread alone I cede the floor to you! Lo Sir, it is I who must aspire to compete, ever looking up awe-struck, a mouse at the base of the Great Pyramid!

And I mean that in all humility. Honest!

And so, if I may be so bold ipso facto as to suggest by way of E Pluribus Unum and Habeus Corpus -- that perhaps these excellent ideas of a few postings back ought to be organized into some Great Topics! They are items that need to be addressed and if they have already been discussed so what, all good ideas need to be hashed over throughout eternity. Meanwhile, in my own humble way, I’ll endeavor to be of some small assistance through searching for the originals. Assuming there really are any because I just automatically say everything’s been done already to avoid any new thoughts. And if they actually do exist they can be URLed into this new and most Noble Quest, by Jove!

Glad you mentioned the Italian Jet research. You're right, probably it was only their lack of resources that kept them from pushing the concept into something pactical.

The British started Jet aircraft research in the late 1920s but lost heart because they couldn't develop an engine light enough to be carried in an aircraft.

The Germans got into it a few years later and actually had a workable prototype in the Spring of 1939 but Goering and Udet, in their infinite wisdom, decided they'd come back to it after finishing what they thought would a short war with a negotiated peace. Udet also said he thought it was an impractical idea, that such a plane would be too fast for any practical use; which makes sense from a 1930s, former WW I fighter ace point of view.

Italy began researching jet engines during the late 30s and had some good racing aircraft they thought might be adapted for the new concept.

[ June 02, 2003, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Liam]

John:

I tend to recall that the Italians had some very nice racey planes in the 30s, I think they stole the show as they have had with cars? I don't know why Udet and Goering didn't think ahead of time, but still Jets in the 1940s would've been grand but overall probably not able to defeat #s.

Though German fighter development sunk after the Bismark. Perhaps all that wasted income

Ahh, I'm honoured truly to be held in such esteem. My colleague in this fine art of SC. I would argue certian subjects more than others. For all the qualities we desire in a game till it reaches a middle ground of perfection and history. We all want to be transfered into 1939 and play the game for ourselves I think... I like to think that for myself. Though always to the point HOI takes it. Finally bought it, it's good though you need to find a group of dedicated players and it needs a few patches. <and of course about 7 hours a day for 5 days>