Edwin P. Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 A while back there were several posts about adding diplomatic options to SC or SC2. Here are some thoughts on how to implement this concept using the existing structure of the program. G. Diplomacy A diplomatic button would be placed on the main screen leading to the diplomatic screen. This screen would use the same design used as the declare war screen. At the bottom of the diplomatic screen would be buttons for each diplomatic option. The player would first select a neutral country and then select one of the diplomatic options to be applied against that country by clicking on a diplomatic option button. Options that are not available would be greyed out. The effect of the diplomatic attempt would be calculated and displayed on screen at the end of the players turn (aka Technology Research Results). This gives your opponent 1 turn to counter your diplomatic efforts before they take effect. The diplomatic option would be activated in the rules/variations screen. Diplomatic Options G1. Send Military Aid – Cost 100 MPP 50% receiving nation’s starting OOB increases by 1 Corps. The chance for a corps increases by 25% if an adjacent nation has been attacked. The corps is placed in a random hex adjacent to the neutral’s capital city. Example: Norway receives 100MPP and there is a 50% that its OOB increases by 1 Corps. If Sweden has been attacked the chance that this aid will be used to equip a corps increases to 75%. There is a chance that this corps is placed in a position to stop the standard 1 turn conquest of Norway. Adjacent Nations Example: Norway: Sweden Sweden: Norway Iraq: Vichy France – Turkey G2. Support Pacifists – Cost 50 MPP 50% receiving nations War Readiness reduced by 5% Example: Germany gives 50MPP to support pacifists in the US. There is a 50% that US war readiness is reduced by 5%. G3. Encourage War – Cost 50 MPP 50% receiving nation’s War Readiness increased by 5%. Example: UK gives 50MPP to influence war support in the US. There is a 50% that US war readiness increases by 5%. G4. Transit Rights – Cost 100MPP 20% receiving nation grants passage to naval ships and transports through its waters/ports/straits (Turkey / Denmark). Example: Germany gives 100MPP to Turkey. There is a 20% that axis ships can now transit the Turkish straits leading to the Black Sea while Turkey remains neutral. (Note: Each Axis ship/transport in the Black Sea should increase Russian war readiness by a %, as each Allied ship/transport in the Adriatic Sea should increase Italian war readiness) G5. Deny Transit – Cost 100 MPP 75% receiving nation will deny passage to opposing forces through its straits/ports (Turkey / Denmark) and will deny admittance to any ships in need of repairs. Any ship in a port or strait hex is displaced to the nearest open sea hex. Example: Axis diplomatic efforts secure transit rights for their ships through the Turkish Straits. Allies can respond with diplomatic efforts that have a 75% to prevent this before Axis ships can transit the Turkish Straits into the Black Sea. Of course, these efforts will cost the allies 100MPP. G6. Ship Repair – Cost 50MPP 50% receiving neutral nation will allow your ships to dock at their port for repairs. A ship docked in a port of a neutral nation can not be attacked without declaring war on that neutral nation. G7. Support Coup - Cost 100 MPP 20% That the government of a minor neutral nation is overthrown and replaced with a friendly government. A true neutral will join your side as an ally, a pro-Axis minor country will join the axis during any Axis inspired coup. If formerly a pro-axis minor nation this nation will become a true neutral nation. If formerly a pro-axis leaning nation (Turkey, Spain) this country will become a true neutral nation. Example: Government of Bulgaria is replaced with a pro-allied government and will not enter the war as an ally of the Germans. Example: Allies support a coup in Greece. Greece joins the Allies the following turn, unless the Axis successfuly suppress the coup during their turn. Example: Allies launch a coup in Spain turning it to a True Neutral Nation. Another successful coup will cause Spain to join the Allies. G8. Support Government - Cost 100MPP 50% that the attempted coup is supressed and the prior government is restored if enemy troops do not occupy the capital city. Example: Axis supported coup is declared in Norway, Allies support counter coup. As long as no Axis troops occupy Oslo, the coup is suppressed and Norway remains neutral. G9. Partisan Support - Cost 50MPP 50% selected neutral nation will allow supplies to flow to partisan forces in an adjacent conquered nation. This increases chance for partisans by 10%. Example: Greece is convinced to support partisans in Yugoslavia. Chance for Yugoslavian partisans increase from 15% to 25% (75% to 85% during winter) until German diplomats convice Greek government to Deny Aid or Axis conquers Greece. G10. Deny Support - Cost 50MPP 50% The neutral nation will deny aid to partisan movements in an adjacent country. Stops effect of G9. Partisan Support. [ July 08, 2003, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin P. Posted July 7, 2003 Author Share Posted July 7, 2003 A while back there were several posts about adding diplomatic options to SC or SC2. Here are some thoughts on how to implement this concept using the existing structure of the program. G. Diplomacy A diplomatic button would be placed on the main screen leading to the diplomatic screen. This screen would use the same design used as the declare war screen. At the bottom of the diplomatic screen would be buttons for each diplomatic option. The player would first select a neutral country and then select one of the diplomatic options to be applied against that country by clicking on a diplomatic option button. Options that are not available would be greyed out. The effect of the diplomatic attempt would be calculated and displayed on screen at the end of the players turn (aka Technology Research Results). This gives your opponent 1 turn to counter your diplomatic efforts before they take effect. The diplomatic option would be activated in the rules/variations screen. Diplomatic Options G1. Send Military Aid – Cost 100 MPP 50% receiving nation’s starting OOB increases by 1 Corps. The chance for a corps increases by 25% if an adjacent nation has been attacked. The corps is placed in a random hex adjacent to the neutral’s capital city. Example: Norway receives 100MPP and there is a 50% that its OOB increases by 1 Corps. If Sweden has been attacked the chance that this aid will be used to equip a corps increases to 75%. There is a chance that this corps is placed in a position to stop the standard 1 turn conquest of Norway. Adjacent Nations Example: Norway: Sweden Sweden: Norway Iraq: Vichy France – Turkey G2. Support Pacifists – Cost 50 MPP 50% receiving nations War Readiness reduced by 5% Example: Germany gives 50MPP to support pacifists in the US. There is a 50% that US war readiness is reduced by 5%. G3. Encourage War – Cost 50 MPP 50% receiving nation’s War Readiness increased by 5%. Example: UK gives 50MPP to influence war support in the US. There is a 50% that US war readiness increases by 5%. G4. Transit Rights – Cost 100MPP 20% receiving nation grants passage to naval ships and transports through its waters/ports/straits (Turkey / Denmark). Example: Germany gives 100MPP to Turkey. There is a 20% that axis ships can now transit the Turkish straits leading to the Black Sea while Turkey remains neutral. (Note: Each Axis ship/transport in the Black Sea should increase Russian war readiness by a %, as each Allied ship/transport in the Adriatic Sea should increase Italian war readiness) G5. Deny Transit – Cost 100 MPP 75% receiving nation will deny passage to opposing forces through its straits/ports (Turkey / Denmark) and will deny admittance to any ships in need of repairs. Any ship in a port or strait hex is displaced to the nearest open sea hex. Example: Axis diplomatic efforts secure transit rights for their ships through the Turkish Straits. Allies can respond with diplomatic efforts that have a 75% to prevent this before Axis ships can transit the Turkish Straits into the Black Sea. Of course, these efforts will cost the allies 100MPP. G6. Ship Repair – Cost 50MPP 50% receiving neutral nation will allow your ships to dock at their port for repairs. A ship docked in a port of a neutral nation can not be attacked without declaring war on that neutral nation. G7. Support Coup - Cost 100 MPP 20% That the government of a minor neutral nation is overthrown and replaced with a friendly government. A true neutral will join your side as an ally, a pro-Axis minor country will join the axis during any Axis inspired coup. If formerly a pro-axis minor nation this nation will become a true neutral nation. If formerly a pro-axis leaning nation (Turkey, Spain) this country will become a true neutral nation. Example: Government of Bulgaria is replaced with a pro-allied government and will not enter the war as an ally of the Germans. Example: Allies support a coup in Greece. Greece joins the Allies the following turn, unless the Axis successfuly suppress the coup during their turn. Example: Allies launch a coup in Spain turning it to a True Neutral Nation. Another successful coup will cause Spain to join the Allies. G8. Support Government - Cost 100MPP 50% that the attempted coup is supressed and the prior government is restored if enemy troops do not occupy the capital city. Example: Axis supported coup is declared in Norway, Allies support counter coup. As long as no Axis troops occupy Oslo, the coup is suppressed and Norway remains neutral. G9. Partisan Support - Cost 50MPP 50% selected neutral nation will allow supplies to flow to partisan forces in an adjacent conquered nation. This increases chance for partisans by 10%. Example: Greece is convinced to support partisans in Yugoslavia. Chance for Yugoslavian partisans increase from 15% to 25% (75% to 85% during winter) until German diplomats convice Greek government to Deny Aid or Axis conquers Greece. G10. Deny Support - Cost 50MPP 50% The neutral nation will deny aid to partisan movements in an adjacent country. Stops effect of G9. Partisan Support. [ July 08, 2003, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer39 Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 These options would be very cool if SC went global. Influencing the South American countires would be fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer39 Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 These options would be very cool if SC went global. Influencing the South American countires would be fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDG Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 Some good ideas. To simplify things, I'd keep all costs at 100 MPP's, while keeping the chance of occurance at 50%. I don't like the transit rights idea though, as gaining turkeys port could be a game breakers as Germany amphibs. all over Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDG Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 Some good ideas. To simplify things, I'd keep all costs at 100 MPP's, while keeping the chance of occurance at 50%. I don't like the transit rights idea though, as gaining turkeys port could be a game breakers as Germany amphibs. all over Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuniworth Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 very good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuniworth Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 very good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 It sounds good in theory (so do alot of things), but remember, you're adding "luck" to the game. The Legends & Icons will figure out the best combinations of MMP allocations to get the odds into their favor. So why add something with chance? Example: Air power is critical now, & there's enough complaining about "not getting tech". Adding another variable might not be what you're looking for. Rambo-Hollywood-Vegas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 It sounds good in theory (so do alot of things), but remember, you're adding "luck" to the game. The Legends & Icons will figure out the best combinations of MMP allocations to get the odds into their favor. So why add something with chance? Example: Air power is critical now, & there's enough complaining about "not getting tech". Adding another variable might not be what you're looking for. Rambo-Hollywood-Vegas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 This is basicly the diplomatic opitions I proposed with some new entry's and basic system for implementing them. Good post, let's hope it comes to pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 This is basicly the diplomatic opitions I proposed with some new entry's and basic system for implementing them. Good post, let's hope it comes to pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John DiFool Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 I actually agree with Rambo-a diplomatic option (in theory a desirable thing) may lead to all sorts of Unintended Consequences. Hubert originally nixed it for SC1 because people would reload to get a country to do what it wanted [i know I did that a few times in CoS, tho mainly for the what-if value]. It probably doesn't need to be as detailed as Edwin has it. One thing if you are trading MPPs around: there probably should be a wastage percentage [this is aside from losses to U-Boats and raiders]- something on the order of a 10-20% loss per shipment [perhaps random in that range]. Then the Allies have some interesting decisions to make vis a vis Lend Lease to Russia... John DiFool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John DiFool Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 I actually agree with Rambo-a diplomatic option (in theory a desirable thing) may lead to all sorts of Unintended Consequences. Hubert originally nixed it for SC1 because people would reload to get a country to do what it wanted [i know I did that a few times in CoS, tho mainly for the what-if value]. It probably doesn't need to be as detailed as Edwin has it. One thing if you are trading MPPs around: there probably should be a wastage percentage [this is aside from losses to U-Boats and raiders]- something on the order of a 10-20% loss per shipment [perhaps random in that range]. Then the Allies have some interesting decisions to make vis a vis Lend Lease to Russia... John DiFool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin P. Posted July 8, 2003 Author Share Posted July 8, 2003 Re: Chance The results of diplomacy can not be guaranteed in real life, and I believe that the results of diplomatic actions should not be 100% predictable. Likewise, the discovery of technology. Some may complain about the chance factor, but I see it as quite realistic and I savor the moments when a new advancement level is achieved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin P. Posted July 8, 2003 Author Share Posted July 8, 2003 Re: Chance The results of diplomacy can not be guaranteed in real life, and I believe that the results of diplomatic actions should not be 100% predictable. Likewise, the discovery of technology. Some may complain about the chance factor, but I see it as quite realistic and I savor the moments when a new advancement level is achieved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzgndr Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Like JerseyJohn, I find myself agreeing with Rambo. There's something to be said for keeping things simple and inherently fair. Not only will the Legends and Icons have to figure whatever new systems are implemented for SC2, so will the AI and everyone else. HOI has a very complicated system and a complex AI, and yet it has been over 8 months now and a team of programmers is STILL working out the bugs. And that's considering years of experience with the EU/EU2 game engine. Hubert is a one-man programming shop. While many ideas proposed in this forum have merit and may someday be implemented, let's keep our expectations reasonable. And I'm just as curious as everyone else to know what's "reasonable" for SC2. Only Hubert knows! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzgndr Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Like JerseyJohn, I find myself agreeing with Rambo. There's something to be said for keeping things simple and inherently fair. Not only will the Legends and Icons have to figure whatever new systems are implemented for SC2, so will the AI and everyone else. HOI has a very complicated system and a complex AI, and yet it has been over 8 months now and a team of programmers is STILL working out the bugs. And that's considering years of experience with the EU/EU2 game engine. Hubert is a one-man programming shop. While many ideas proposed in this forum have merit and may someday be implemented, let's keep our expectations reasonable. And I'm just as curious as everyone else to know what's "reasonable" for SC2. Only Hubert knows! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John DiFool Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Originally posted by Bill Macon: Like JerseyJohn, I find myself agreeing with Rambo. AHEM. Tho I do admit that JJ is actually my long lost twin 11th cousin's former college roommate's pet rat... John DiFool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John DiFool Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Originally posted by Bill Macon: Like JerseyJohn, I find myself agreeing with Rambo. AHEM. Tho I do admit that JJ is actually my long lost twin 11th cousin's former college roommate's pet rat... John DiFool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 JDF Ahem -- at the end of that extension I come out being someone's Pet Rat! Hello? :confused: Bill Exactly -- there are dozens of threads in the back pages with elaborate ideas, many of them created by my humble self. A lot of them are very good, some are terrible. Hubert will probably not get into anything very complicated unless he radically changes his style. Anticipating him is a losing battle. He's mentioned putting bookmarks in some of those threads. The ones I recall are -- the original Diplomacy Thread, Shaka's Economics Thread, and the first Thread that explored neutral nations economic bias regarding warring nations. The overal gist of those Topics was to find a way of avoiding unrealistic invasions, such as Germany hitting Switzerland, Sweden or Spain, and the Allies hitting the Low Countries. He's probably mentioned bookmarks in others that I don't recall. I'd like some changes made to the weather and amphibious landing system but at this point I think the only was is through house rules. By posting things like this on the Forum there's always a chance Hubert will read it and incorporate the idea into the game. [ July 08, 2003, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 JDF Ahem -- at the end of that extension I come out being someone's Pet Rat! Hello? :confused: Bill Exactly -- there are dozens of threads in the back pages with elaborate ideas, many of them created by my humble self. A lot of them are very good, some are terrible. Hubert will probably not get into anything very complicated unless he radically changes his style. Anticipating him is a losing battle. He's mentioned putting bookmarks in some of those threads. The ones I recall are -- the original Diplomacy Thread, Shaka's Economics Thread, and the first Thread that explored neutral nations economic bias regarding warring nations. The overal gist of those Topics was to find a way of avoiding unrealistic invasions, such as Germany hitting Switzerland, Sweden or Spain, and the Allies hitting the Low Countries. He's probably mentioned bookmarks in others that I don't recall. I'd like some changes made to the weather and amphibious landing system but at this point I think the only was is through house rules. By posting things like this on the Forum there's always a chance Hubert will read it and incorporate the idea into the game. [ July 08, 2003, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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