SC-Tactics

[Jim Boggs]

First Post so bear with me. To Hubert Cater: Excellent game here-I am a veteran of AH Board games from way back and SC gives me that same rush I used to get playing Third Reich. Despite different rules the FEELING I get when playing is the same. Nuff Said on that.

To the Forum "pros" ie(Brianthewise, Brad Tennant, Zappsweden, JJ Rambo, and of course the incredible CVM) please be so kind as to add your pearls of wisdom to some tactical questions posed by a nOOb.

When attacking cities should one hit it with air power first? Should infantry assault first? Is it better to have an armoured unit sweep around from the rear first to isolate the city? I have found that my armour has fared very poorly in attacking cities. At what level do you reinforce your units? When they reach 7? or 5? If you have a choice of hitting an enemy ship with both air and naval units, is it better to hit with air first?

The AI likes to surround cities with corps to reduce the amount of access you have to the city. Should one try to eliminate these first or try for the city capture from whatever locations you can reach?

I have more, but I certainly don't want to abuse my first post privilege. Anyway to all the forum posters, especially the old timers (CVM=14 yrs old incredible!!) Thanks for being here.

P.S. To JJ Rambo, I know who you are: YOU ARE

RAIDER FAN (Ha, Ha)

[ January 06, 2003, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: Jim Boggs ]

[GumbyDude]

I'm probably not known as a "pro" here, but I was sort of a pro with the old AH games back in the day and have played SC for a few months now. I usually troll around this forum.

All your questions I'd answer the same: "It depends."

Depends on what forces I have, their positions, the positions I need to be in afterwards, how many hexes can I get on the unit, whether or not I need to attack other cities, and so on.

I usually try to keep a unit back that can advance into the city (usually a corp or non-essential unit not needed in another attack like a Balkan unit or minor ally unless I want to attack from it). If you have problems damaging cities with tanks, perhaps you need to get HQ supply and readiness to them. I like armies for attacking, but tanks do great for me too. and are better than corps for sure.

Look for defender's fortification levels. Bombing will reduce this level by 1 as will attacks by ground. I think strat bombing reduces by 2 but who builds strat bombers?. Get the level down to 0 or 1 before attacking unless you have a lot of ground units surrounding the city. I like using jets with HQ support to lower the defenders' strength. Each plane should take off a point or two (or more with jets), but sometimes nothing (will reduce fortified level). I also bomb with a mind open to opponent's interceptions. I use my strongest first with best HQ support and experience to maximize his air losses.

Isolating a unit is good, but doesn't seem to take effect until the following turn, so keep him surrounded for a turn or more. If you do, he won't be able to reinforce back to 10 (supposed to be max of 5 when surrounded, but sometimes I've seen 8) depending on his supply level. Sometimes I clear out hexes adjacent to city with weaker units so my stronger units can advance adjacent to city to attack it.

Even if I have lots of air, I don't take the unit down to 1 with air units. Why use 3 air to take defender from 6 down to 1? Hit him once down to 4 or so, use a tank or army which may kill him out right. If he's still there, re-evaluate. This saves your air for other targets or op moving forward or to other front. I also use the stronger units to attack when defender is strong, and progress down to weaker guys, sometimes using a 3 to clear out a defender at 1, then advancing someone from my rear area to take the hex (I use Balkan units or corps to garrison Russian cities so they're good for occupying cities).

Sometimes I don't reinforce even when a unit is at 5. Often time, I keep some units with 5 and 6 strength units at near max experience. You'll find that supply, HQ readiness and experience have more effect than strength, really. I've attacked level 5 armies with level 5 armies at full experience and HQ support and killed the defender without a point back. It's all about HQs. Just be careful to protect your flanks (some good players will selectively counter attack a weak unit if they can get 3 hexes on it.) I reinforce when below 5, but it depends again. If an air is below 5 it won't intercept. If you can only reinforce to 5, you may die on interception. Better to wait until you can reinforce to 9-10 in some cases, but depends on jets level and so on.

I think the bottom line is HQ support. Use an HQ just for your air units too. Surround the HQ with 5 air. Use HQs just behind your front line of attack if possible, remember to chain them together deep in Russia for support and supply to front line, and watch those partisans hampering supply.

[Jim Boggs]

Gumbydude-Excellent response-Thanks. Most of the forum bits I have read are very detailed in strategy, but except for a post by Rambo, I haven't seen a lot of advice on tactics. Your response that it "all depends" is exactly correct of course. Right now in Russia as the Axis I'm trying to take Riga to free up troops to reinforce my panzers who have closed on Leningrad and the defenders are putting up a very tough fight. I brought a panzer unit back in hopes of finishing off one of the corps protecting Riga only to have a "no effect" against a Level 1 Corps AAGHHH!!. God I love this game.

[Friedrich_der_2]

Units in cities are not easy to destroy. Just try to lower the fortification level with planes or rockets to zero before attacking with groud units. Ships are also good for reducing fortifation at coastel cities.

Ever attack with units with hich readiness und supply level, they must be assigned to a HQ (just make a click on the HQs around and the highlighted units are assigned to this HQ). Use you second strogest unit first, than weaker units and last you strongest unit. Have a unit (including a HQ!) in reach to capture the city when the unit is destroyed.

Never attack from river hexes if possible, you attack strength is halved. Experience of units and HQs is very important. I personally would not attack with strength 5 units because they can be lost. In all other points I agree GumbyDude 100%.

At the beginning of the game you have to be fast as Axis. But later BE PATIENT!. Cover you flanks, habe backup units and a secure flat frontline. Reinforcing is much cheaper as building a new unit (one half the cost per strength). So destroy units if possible and be patient. When you are near Moskow or take Moskow Russia will receive reinforcements if war in Siberia is not checked in the options.

Sven

[Jim Boggs]

Sven1969-Excellent follow-up-Thanks for your input

Being patient is hard-Manstein has a strong force of panzers pushing towards Moscow and claims there is nothing in front of him. My infantry is still trying to reduce Soviet hedgehogs at Kiev, Odessa, Smolensk, and Riga. My frontline has gaps between the tanks and infantry. I seem to be facing the same dilemna as OKW, should I hold my panzers and let them reinforce while finishing off the hedgehogs or go all out against a seemingly very thin Russian line with just my panzers? Did I mention that I LOVE THIS GAME.

[Liam]

Jim,

I'm a newbie too! I find all valuable, though I have learned most of it. Becareful! This isn't WW2 AI, these people will pull things out of the hat you have never seen. HQs, cities and terrain are valuable in accessing whether to attack. Knowing whether the next round you will have supply for a unit. I once sent my tank into the direction of Riga with strength 9 after attack. Then the following turn the ruskies filled in the gaps with lots of corps and eventually kill it 3 turns later from lack of supply. You really want to becareful about air! You don't want your HQs or your Air in striking range if the enemy masses his air. I use the 3 attack rule. Use 2 armies 1 tank per city.. Soften it up with 1 airstrike inbetween and then drop your corps onto the city to capture. Also situational awareness. Know where he is going to dedicate his forces! Get there in #s and put up a fight! Often though you may lose units, if he losses so much due to attrition the gain wasn't worth it! I find this especially true with the low income US and UK countries. I once damaged my UK fleet and it took a full 1 or 2 to fix it! You can't afford to do foolish things with them. The German fleet is just a nuisance for them to put up with and any true dedication of resources to putting it under is a waste IMHO. Unless he is blundering! My last game I landed an HQ<4corps,2armies,2tanks, 2 italian corps> had 4 level 3 fighters in striking range of London Manchester. I couldn't put it away, though he had half his navy left had he not covered that 1943 possability I would have taken that island and I had him stalemated in Russia just about. After you have enough Units to do your evil deeds with and cover US/UK Ops. Make sure that you put your money on the right Tech. I believe in Jets, Industrial, and Anti-aircraft.<as all Allies will get jets>

[Jim Boggs]

Liam-Excellent points-Thanks. You are so right about HQ's and air units. Right now my HQ's and air units are located in the wasteland between my infantry and tanks as I try to move them up to keep them in range (Same as Third Reich). Gumbydude and Sven's point about HQ's seems to very true as there is a tremendous difference between supply and readiness between units in command range and not.

If I may be so bold as to post nOOb rule #1 which I learned the hard way. Please disagree if you wish:

Rule #1-Always eliminate units, never try to just reduce a bunch of units, they will be rebuilt and it's a lot cheaper to rebuild.

[ January 06, 2003, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Jim Boggs ]

[Fubarno]

Hi Jim,

Here are some strategies that I employ when attacking any target that has a high entrenchment level. Whenever possible I will use my corps first to soften up the position even if they are attacking an army or tank corps. I find that corps tend to take a few points of damage and may even get a lucky shot in that reduces the strength of ones target. Exceptions to this are when the target has a very high experience level. Each successive attack reduces entrenchment by one (bombers reduce 2 entrench points).

The losses of the corps are much cheaper to replace.

Then I bring in my heavies, my army's and armor corps and air corps to really start dealing some damage to the target. This tends to reduce the ammount of damage that these more expensive units take and also contribute to their experience growth. Try to use units that are under HQ control whenever possible, of course.

As far as surrounding the hex, the effects are greatest when the city hex is completely surrounded and the defender, if it has survived, can only reinforce to 5 max. If the city is not completely surrounded but cut off from its capital, reinforcement inside will be to 8 and no troops can be built or operationally moved there.

Finally, from your post I see you are using your forces to sometimes push far in front of the main battle lines. When playing a human opponent this can be very risky, even when a HQ accompanies these pieces. I look specifically for my opponent to do these things, cut them off from their supply and begin their destruction starting with their HQ. Units out of suply are incredibly vulnerable with degraded readiness levels. You will find a more patient and less frenetic advance to be more successful and less costly. Hope this helps.

[ January 06, 2003, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: Fubarno ]

[Augustus]

Hi bud:

Glad you're enjoying the game. I usually attack cities/entrenched units as follows:

1. Carriers (if available and target in range)

2. Other surface fleet units (if available and target in range)

3. Air

4. Corp (to continue to reduce entrenchment value, and if I take a hit, its' only on a Corp)

5. Army

6. Armour

This usually works for me...and if i do not take an objective in a particular turn using the above combo (or part thereof), I just sit back, relax, and finish 'em off next turn.

Cheers...and enjoy!

[Jim Boggs]

To Augustus and Fubarno-well said. I've been updating my game tonight so couldn't respond right away to your posts. Thanks guys-this is really great stuff. I've pulled back my tanks and finally took Riga, Smolensk, and Odessa, the Soviets are building up at Kharkov and have pushed me back at that point. Pulling back from Leningrad will probably cost me Finland, as the Soviets immediately attacked and are making good progress on that front. The new year (1942) will be decisive.

I can't help it-This game RULES!

[jon_j_rambo]

Jim Boggs --- Jimmy B., welcome to SC. Things are a tad different from 3R. The big thing: the tank surround exploitation isn't as effective. Why? 3R had only 4-turns per year, so turns were very critical.

1) You need HQ's (except for certain situations)

2) The following minors should taken in 1-turn: LowCountries, Norway, Sweden, Greece. 2-turns-Poland & Yugo.

3) Air Power is King

4) Smart players destory enemy pieces while protecting their own front lines. This is more important than surrounding units.

5) The Money game is the way to win rather than getter too concerned about "cool" objectives.

Those are just some starter points. If you're American, you're eligible for Team-USA; & of course further tips. Once you become "Active" on Team-USA you must maintain a winning percentage against the Euros.

I'm aging gracefully as the Champ & will begin mentoring. If you end a "player" or can work yourself into a SC-Icon position, I could use a wingman.

Rambo the Legend

Captain of Team-USA

[ January 07, 2003, 02:27 AM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

[JerseyJohn]

J.B.

Thanks for asking my opinion. I don't consider myself to be the player these other fellows are. I like to post and mainly discuss history. But, as you asked for it, here goes:

One thing I've found with this game is it's easy to lose your armored units attempting the old wrap around techniques. Infantry can't catch up with them and though the computer usually scampers away at the first sight of violence human opponents are never so charitable. I like to hammer cities and other important objectives from the air first, then attack them with armor and occupy them with a full stregnth infantry army. Usually you'll have to settle for a corps, but if there's any possibility of a decent counter attack the defender should be a fairly strong army.

By attacking the city with your armor and occupying it with infantry you'll have your armored units protected by the captured city instead of sitting in it and chances are they'll be strong the following turn in case a counter attack is called for.

As you've probably guessed I'm a very conservative player who doesn't like to risk good units like armor. Armor is very vulnerable to both ground and air attack, so protect their flanks and try not to keep them to far in front of fighter support.

Regarding HQs, you don't want to risk them lightly, but while they're supplying and helping to motivate your forces, they can also serve as a second line of defense. For example, when the Axis breaks through into France if I haven't got a spare corps to post in the rough terrain north and west of the Maginot Line (also known as the Ardennes Forest), I'll place an HQ there. It's a good defensive hex and the unit will only be exposed to attack from one place, the most Northern Maginot hex. If it's full stregnth it shouldn't fall below eight and meanwhile you're containing the trapped units so they won't be free to sortie into your hinge area, disrupting things and very possibly delivering an unpleasant surprise.

A simple point, but one that has to always be kept in mind, is garrison your cities. It's easy to wander around leaving defenseless cities in your rear. But it's a poor idea as sooner or later some stray unit might slip passed your battle line and swagger through an open door. Corps are best for this, but airfleets, bombers and HQs are also good if the city is fairly close to the front so they can also provide their normal function.

Anything else I'd have said was already mentioned by the real players, including several useful ideas I had no idea of, so it is me who has to thank you for posting this topic.

[ January 07, 2003, 03:53 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Jim Boggs]

To JJ Rambo and Jersey John-More excellent material for the nOOb player. From the responses that people have graciously provided, I feel that I have gained some valuable insights into better handling of the troops which has enhanced my gameplay already. I finally took Riga by using one of my Baltic cruisers to attack from the sea and reduce the Soviet fortifications in support of the ground attack. The 3R tactic of encirclement seems to not play as large a role in SC, but it will still work in a long term situation if you can reduce the city's ability to reinforce after a turn or two. Jersey John you are so right about garrisons-Those partisans in Russia can really create havoc with your supply line, which has the unfortunate effect of reducing the city's status to a point you cannot place new units on them.

In purchasing units, I find myself buying 2 Corps instead of 1 Army most of the time. Is this advisable?

Also, in the realm of research, I have spread my funds to have 1 point in AT, AA, Jets, Industry, and Armor. I think it's cool to get the periodic updates in this random fashion.

I have also begun allocating research for Italy and have 1 point in Jets and AT for now-this may be questionable.

Once again I want to thank the forum members who have taken the time to share their thoughts with a nOOb and can assure each and every one of you that it is highly appreciated.

[GumbyDude]

As far as research: I think that maxing out in one tech is better than spreading out the points. I'm talking put all 5 in one tech before funding a second one. This will almost gaurantee you get all the levels within a couple years (even with the new 1.06 patch changes to research). Yes, once you get level 5, you lose $$ when you pull the points out, but I think that having level 5 jets in 1941 really makes the difference in Russia and stopping the harrasment from UK/US air in the West.

Taking cities: In Russia, place your HQs surrounded by jets so that they can attack more than one city if possible, usually keeping them centrally located. Can you hit either Minsk or Kiev if you want? Kharkov/Smolensk? If youhave to split air up between cities, it's best to take one city than to leave both at level 1 to rebuild.

Garrisoning: I use Rumanian, Hungarian, Bulgarian troops to garrison since they don't get HQ benefits like true German troops on front line. I tried Italians, but it looked like they receive the MPPs of the city if I used them (or it seemed like they did). Don't ignore the Pripet Marshes either. Seems most partisans pop up around there (and Caucasus).

Attacking with 5 army: someone mentioned it was risky. I was referring to special circumstances like my last game: I was max experience, excellent HQ support, adjacent to weakened unit around 4 strength, was protected from attack on all sides, needed to kill unit, wanted to conserve an air unit and other units for attacking other hexes, enemy had NO HQ support, poor supply, and no experience... whew, lot of favorable conditions there. Just using it as an example of the extreme. Heck, I've even attacked with tank unit with level 3. Granted, it was against a 1 strength corp that had been sourrounded for over a turn, 3 hexes to my rear with no danger of counter attack. I think that's better than using a full strength unit that could be advancing up to the front in Russia. Just don't risk this with units that are exposed to counter attack. Pull back or reinforce in place.

Finally, level 5 jets at strength 5 full experience and full HQ support are more powerful than a regular 10 strength air. I've seen this kind of jet unit do 8-9 points of damage and take minimal damage in return.

[JerseyJohn]

GumbyDude

I used to also favor maxing on specific researches but I think in this version, if you spread them around and your enemy has an area he's advanced in you get a bonus factor simulating espionage and reverse engineering of captured weapons, planes, etc.. I'm not sure how it works, I think it's something like a 10% boost in that area. Probably Hubert detailed it when the 1.06 patch was announced six or seven forum pages back.

[Jim Boggs]

Gumbydude and Jersey John-Thanks again for your advice. As far as research goes I'll be honest, I just think it's cool to get a new upgrade for whichever research category happens to hit. Some turns you get nothing, one turn I got three in one which was really nice.

To Jersey John-I read your posts regarding an organizational approach to posting which was rejected by the Board. I also have read the Forum since day one and know that you have been a Major Contributor, both in advice and humor-your loss to this community will be felt. Please though, ponder this:

I am a nOOb, and this thread has been responded to by other nOObs which makes me think that this cycle of new members will continue as the word of Hubert's jewel gets out. I have nothing but respect for the guys who fought it out during development to get their ideas included in the game. From what I have read Hubert has been very forthcoming in his acknowledgement of this forum in his work.

I feel that to this point my appearance on this board out of nowhere as a nOOb has been greeted with warm welcomes and some truly excellent posts by people I had not seen before on this forum and has been a truly rewarding experience of itself.

Your comments about the research changes is I believe correct as Hubert has changed it to help the countries who are lagging behind in research stay competitive.

Do not allow this incident with the Board to frustrate you to the point of not posting here anymore. One can state his position with passion and still bow to the inevitable "no way" in such a way as to not hurt the new people who have yet to post or buy this game.

Your status as an icon of this forum was EARNED not given and it will certainly lead to disagreements, thus sparking more interest. I feel personnaly cheated when people such as yourself and the Sarge (9-1b) allow a few individuals to run you off this board. You still have a vital part to play as more and more new people come on board.

In closing please, both you and Sarge- any thread or post that has my name attached is a personal invitation for you to comment.

Thank you and I still LOVE THIS GAME.

P.S-Tonight I will invade the Eastern Med with the Italians to see what the British are made of.

Wish me luck.

[JerseyJohn]

JB,

Thanks for the good word. I neither regard myself as an icon nor you as a newbie. I look up this thing as an equalized field where everyone's opinions and postings have the same merit. My intention isn't to leave, as such, but to tone my activity down. I find it counter productive to post and always have some officials threats hanging over my head. It's a foolish approach and I'm both amazed and disappointed SC tolerates that from a moderator. Nobody comes here to be bullied and I also find it more than a little disappointing someone in charge chooses to project himself in that manner. It inspires neither fear nor respect and there should be no room for it.

Beyond all that, I don't lump Hubert in with that mentality. He's shown himself to be both objective and fair. In any case the site will go on pretty much as it has whether people like myself or the Sarge do or don't add another word, which is good as it's a good meeting place.

Before long you'll find yourself referred to as an icon and, like myself, you'll look around, puzzled, and say the magic words, "who, me?"

[ January 07, 2003, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Kuniworth]

Rambo; Aging as the champ??? I thought zapsweden beat you....

[GumbyDude]

Actually, even in version 1.06 maxing out in jets still practically guarantees level 4 or 5 by end of 42. I don't think that UK can afford this and Russia definitely cannot catch you right away. True, it's a law of diminishing returns (5+4+3+2+1 if you're all alone, better if he's chasing you), but my logic is this:

If you put 1 or 2 in like your opponent does, you are almost guaranteed to be equal to your opponent in jet levels the entire game (except where deviations occur). You will not have a sizeable advantage in air combat or air strikes without some luck. If you max out early you will most likely be ahead of him for at least some part of the game. It is during those turns that you can do the most damage. When I see a 9 strength plane disappear fighting a jet, :eek: I have to think it's worth it even if he gets a level or two himself a few turns later with only 1 point allocated. Sure, he gets a free ride to some extent via espionage, but the Allies have a hard time even buying new jets let alone the research points. By the time he gains parity, you've already done your damage and moved on to something else or cashed the points in to buy new jet or armor units or whatever. Maybe I'm way off base with this though... :confused:

[Moon]

Sorry for hi-jacking this thread for a second, but it seems like the appropriate place to post that both Jim Boggs and JersayJohn - engaged in such a friendly discussion here - have now been banned.

It appears both are the same person, as a quick IP comparison has revealed. Both accounts used two identical IPs on more than one occasion, which is enough proof for us to assume that it's somebody using multiple logins. This is not allowed by our forum rules, therefore both accounts have now been banned.

Martin

[J Wagner]

That's no surprise. I thought Boggs asskissing seemed terribly familiar, and nauseating, now I know why.

[zappsweden]

I will give you my tips on research. Of course they vary from game to game. If Germany see the UK having level 2-3 Jets early, ofcourse they should adapt and put in some more on Jets. If Italy suffers a deceisive naval defeat in the mediterranean, ofcourse they should not research Gun Laying Radar.

The important thing is to adapt and only put 4-5 chits in an area where you are behind.

REMEMBER (about the catch.up system):

Whatever you research, you will give to your enemies, which in turn they can use against your Allies.

UK:

Do NOT ever research industrial in the first half of the game. It will only benefit Germany thanks to the catch-up effects.

Do NOT put much effort into research, only some jet (1-3 chits) and some navy (Gun Laying Radar 1-3 chits) are worth researching. The risk is that a high tech air UK will help Germany to catch-up and be too strong when Russia enters.

Russia:

Put the 3 chits on Tanks, alternatively 2 chits on tanks and 1 chit on anti-tank. In some circumstances when Axis has many fronts against the UK and USA, Russia could go for Jet Research.

USA:

Research Jets to make your level 1 air fleet better when sent to UK. That one air fleet can make the USA cash affect the war early on if the axis are too strong in their coast defence.

Germany:

Spread out the research. Do NOT go up to 10 chits too early. Do it when you already have lots of full strength units. If UK and France resist violently in France then buy troops first and do the research later.

I will put them in order i.e the first one is the one you should increase early in the game.

Jet (1-3 chits)

Industrial (1-2 chits)

heavy tanks (1-2 chits)

Long-Range (1-2 chits)

Gun Laying (1-2 chits)

Italy:

Put 1-3 chits on Gun Laying radar research. You need all the other cash to buy corps to garrison all the cities that Germany conquer.

[ January 07, 2003, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[J Wagner]

Zapp, I was never good at economics, so, do you sacrifice building UK units for research? How are you able to afford the research otherwise? Even just a max of six is 1500.

[jon_j_rambo]

What the hell (heaven) is going on? Jersey & Jimmy Bogus are the same dude? There's something weird about that. I knew we already had a bunch clowns online, now we have a circle jerk.

Don't worry about me being somebody else. I'm the guy you want to be & I can't be made any better than a SC-Legend.

Far as stuffing the Forum with praise & posts from some phony name. Hell (Heaven), I just praise myself, it saves time.

Jersey --- If you can read this I'll give you a pointer on life: Get some confidence in yourself & don't worry what others think. Be a man, step-up & sack-up.

Jim Boggs --- Lets just call you Jimmy Bogus. Sorry, you can't be on Team-USA if you're some other dude. And if anybody is going to be cloned, it should be me.

To everybody else --- Are there anymore freaks out there that need banned? This includes perverts, german-worshippers, & stuff I don't even want to know about.

Beside testing the SC-game, maybe battlefront.com should make me a Moderator. Actually, that's not my style being a hall-monitor or nark. I prefer being the Forum-Buster.

Be your own person, DTA (don't trust anybody), & never go with the World. "Friendship with the world is eminity with God" ---says that somewhere in the Bible.

Rambo, SC-Legend

Captain Team-USA

[ January 07, 2003, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

[Kuniworth]

SC legend? Rather SC outlaw