New Sept 39 Historic OOB scenario :)

[Becephalus]

Anyone who knows about WWII knwos that the Fall Wiess scenario is not really that close to history.

I have created a new scenario that has an actual historic disposition of forces. It turns out that germany starts out with about 50% more units as well as the UK and FRA. A lot fo these new units are at less than full strength though. I cannot do enough playtesting myself to see if it is balanced, but I believe that some money may need to be given to the USA and USSR to balance things. It also has a better representation of the descrepancies in research and production (IMO).

Hopefully someone can host this somewhere (or perhaps I can put it up on my friends website).

[ April 13, 2004, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: Becephalus ]

[Becephalus]

Having a hard time deciding German officer dispositions. Rundstet should be near Prague (in charge of polish front "Army Group South"), but pretty much all the commmanders participated so which ones to choose?

Kliest, List, Model, and Manstein (god it seems like the whole cream of the german officers korps) were under Rundstedt so they should be out. Leeb was in command of western Front so I will put him near munich. Rommel didn't participate so he is out too. Gudarien is described as Commander of mobile forces, but I am guessing he shouldn't be included (I am shooting for 3 HQ starting for GER)

Bock was in command of the north (but kesselring commanded the air force to great effect (so I am not sure which one to include)

[ April 13, 2004, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: Becephalus ]

[Panzer39]

Maybe we can get some support for scenario hosting by battlefront when SC2 launches with its much expanded editor.

[Some_God]

God... SC2 looks great.

[Shaka of Carthage]

Becephalus

In determing your units, what ratio did you use for Divisions in a Corp or Army?

[Becephalus]

Roughly 10 Divisions make an army and 5 make a corps (but things are a little messaged (depending on how large and well equiped those divisions were) to make it work out ok).

[Arngrim]

I'd love to try that scenario.. any luck with finding a host?

[Becephalus]

Yeah I can post it on my friends website. I will put it up sometime tongiht or tomorrow and post a link here

[JerseyJohn]

In many of my own homemade scenarios I've added the Kesselring HQ and placed it squarely in the center. You mentioned earlier that he commanded the luftflottes and this simulates that -- also it insures that all the German units have more impetus.

In the West I believe von Leeb was watching the Rhine with that skeleton force -- there would be three army groups for the French invasion and his would initially be along the Sigfried Line. The Sixth Army was also forming along the Belgian border, I usually represent that as a 3 pointer.

On the Allied side, the French 6th & 7th Armies were also mobilizing and Billote was near the Belgian border, an able commander doomed to failure. Gamelin was holed up in a castle without a telephone line, issueing vague suggestions to his army commanders. Weygand another old man, was called out of retirement and sent to Syria, later replacing Gamelin, doing a good job in what was already a fiasco -- when he said the war was lost it was taken as smug defeatism but he was only stating a fact known by everyone other than a few French politicians.

The BEF was forming in England.

Good Luck on your noble quest, hope some of that was of help to you.

[Becephalus]

already had most of that, except the french commander info but thank you for the input

[JerseyJohn]

My pleasure, I like your ideas on this.

[Bill101]

The Polish OOB in Fall Weiss is also a little wrong, as some Armies are down as Corps and vice versa, and this doesn't reflect their real strengths either, as the Krakow Army was the biggest mobilised army, yet it is a Corps in SC.

I would be more inclined to represent the Pomorze Army with a Corps.

In reality they had more formations than SC gives them, though as the majority were still in the process of mobilising when the war began adding half strength units would probably be the most realistic way to correct this.

If the Germans are bumped up then maybe the Benelux countries will also have to be bumped up a little?

I can't wait for SC2 when we'll be able to make the campaigns exactly how we want them...

[ April 15, 2004, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: Bill101 ]

[Becephalus]

Well I cannot bump up any neutrals since the editor does not allow you to. I think I have the polish about right (at least in overall strength if not in number of formations) and they fall at the historic time. I find Germany looks really scary in this mod, but I have given the USA 500 extra MPP and the USSR 1500 extra MPP (may need more to balance which is fine because that too is historical ). FRA and the UK also have many more units.

here is the link to the download

http://www.deciv.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1380

A dialogue with comments/critiques (and good reasoning/evidence behind claims) might really help this scenario get better. SO please post your opinions of this even fi you do not like it. Thanks

[ April 15, 2004, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: Becephalus ]

[Becephalus]

I imagine air fleets as about 1 air group(~120 "front line" aircraft) a strength point, so around 1200 aircraft. At the start of the war GER had over 4000 aircraft while the UK had only just over 1500, so the current proportion (in my oob) seems right on

[ April 15, 2004, 09:49 PM: Message edited by: Becephalus ]

[Shaka of Carthage]

I haven't downloaded the scenario, but I would rather have you provide the numbers, since it would be easier to discuss them that way.

I'm not at home, so I don't have my source materials in front of me, so that will have to wait a bit. I noticed on the other site, you said you have spent about a "reasonable" amount of time researching this... being about 12 hours. I'm curious about where you got your source material, since your aircraft numbers seem kinda high.

First... if you could just list the number of combat aircraft and divisions you are using, it would give us a good starting point. Lets start with Germany and Italy. You don't have to break it down into divisions by Army Groups or commands, just the total divisions and the total combat aircraft.

Its been agreed that an aircraft unit is around 1000 aircraft. So using 120 per str point isn't too far off to start with. But giving the Germans over 4000 aircraft in '39 is just a bit high from what I remember.

Next question would be how you resolved the differences in combat power between a German '39 infantry division and a Italian division? I'll show you how I solved the conflict.

German Corp = 4 divisions

German Army = 8 divisions

Italian Corp = 6 divisions

Italian Army = 12 divisions

I don't really care too much about the manpower at this point, since the majority (>80%) of the combat power is in the divisional artillery.

But where the strength points are important, is in the ability of the Corp and Army to absorb and replace infantry losses, which is another topic entirely.

[Becephalus]

How do you set up the Italians without activating them into the war????????

[Shaka of Carthage]

You can't.

But what I did was put a limit on the total number of units a nation could build. With the Italians, that came to eight (8) units. Three (3) Armies, four (4) Corps and one (1) Tank. I also put a limit on the Italian air of two (2).