Carl G. E. von Mannerheim Posted July 5, 2002 Share Posted July 5, 2002 Heres some books you all should check out at your local library or go out and buy before the big day: Hitler Options How Hitler Could've Won World War two Hitler's War (need more creative titles dont you think)Hitler's Panzers east (sheesh what is this) These are just the ones i have/read, if anyone else has some they'd like to add, i'd greatly appreciate it. I would probably go buy the. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloid Posted July 6, 2002 Share Posted July 6, 2002 Originally posted by Carl Von Mannerheim: Heres some books you all should check out at your local library or go out and buy before the big day: Hitler Options How Hitler Could've Won World War two Hitler's War (need more creative titles dont you think)Hitler's Panzers east (sheesh what is this) These are just the ones i have/read, if anyone else has some they'd like to add, i'd greatly appreciate it. I would probably go buy the.Hmmm... a little fixated (sp) on Hitler are we??? I would suggest "Clash of Titans" (author? I'm at work) It's a somewhat more modern Soviet perspective on what happened, though I'm sure someone will say it's not the best, it has it's worth. Aloid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl G. E. von Mannerheim Posted July 6, 2002 Author Share Posted July 6, 2002 Do you mean "when titans clashed," ive read that one before... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloid Posted July 6, 2002 Share Posted July 6, 2002 Originally posted by Carl Von Mannerheim: Do you mean "when titans clashed," ive read that one before...Probably... I'll have to look at it when I get home. Did you look around for the movie "The Winter War" yet? I'm going to order the DVD of it next week. Aloid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl G. E. von Mannerheim Posted July 6, 2002 Author Share Posted July 6, 2002 Actually, you all are going to laugh but, im trying to get my dad to either let me order it online or go get it from borders(thats a bookstore for all you brits) Im not sure if he will because i just bought Dark blue world and Patton on dvd, but ill try [ July 05, 2002, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: Carl Von Mannerheim ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straha Posted July 6, 2002 Share Posted July 6, 2002 Guys, there is SO MUCH stuff to read out there ... but I agree that with respect to the decent "what if" flair of SC, the Hitler Options somehow fits quite nicely. Straha [ July 05, 2002, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: Straha ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl G. E. von Mannerheim Posted July 6, 2002 Author Share Posted July 6, 2002 So youve read that book before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straha Posted July 6, 2002 Share Posted July 6, 2002 It's a nice collection of essays by various authors. They try to flesh out their what-ifs by taking logistics and other "givens" into acount which is laudable because this separates the essays from total daydreams. Still, it is all hypothetical, and therfore will remain contentious, of course. Btw my favorite book about the 3rd Reich is still Shirer's "The rise and fall of the Third Reich" despite its age. It's simply so well written. Beware, it doesn't focus on military issues, though. Hmm, about the warfare itself: Lidell Hart treats the whole globe. Like every author, he has his weaknesses, but still ... I recently read Blood, Tears and Folly by Len Deighton ... very interesting (except if you're from the UK, in which case it has a tendency to make your blood boil). But as I said, there is so much to read out there ... Straha [ July 05, 2002, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: Straha ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
husky65 Posted July 6, 2002 Share Posted July 6, 2002 Originally posted by Carl Von Mannerheim: Heres some books you all should check out at your local library or go out and buy before the big day: Two main ones, Albert Speer 'inside the third riech' (the first half is all about architecture, but the second half will show why the Germans would have lost even if they had the logistics). John Ellis 'Brute Force' Will tell you all about the logistics involved and why the axis was never going to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straha Posted July 6, 2002 Share Posted July 6, 2002 Ellis' account seems especially true with respect to the Pacific War because even grave mistakes in strategy and tactics on the side of the Allies would not have had any decisive effects there. But with respect to the ETO, I'd say we would have to add something like "all other things being equal". Some more bungling on the side of the Soviets, and some less on the side of the Germans could have toppled the balance in 41 and even still in 42. The longer we wait, the less this plays a role, so the logistics factor gets ever more dominant later on. In 43, everything is pretty much decided already (even if Kursk would have gone the other way, the Axis would not have won). Btw I think that most good wargames do take this into account already. The Axis always has a very tight timetable. Allies get stronger and stronger over time, and the moment the Axis offensive looses enough momentum to stall the only thing one can do as player is try to prolong the inevitable. Straha Edit: the war was won/lost in Russia. That is I assume that if the USSR would have surrendered somewhere in 41/42, then the US/UK would not have tried to stage an invasion and there would have been a de facto truce. [ July 05, 2002, 08:56 PM: Message edited by: Straha ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mammou Posted July 6, 2002 Share Posted July 6, 2002 When Titans Clashed is by Glantz. Very good book. Also good are; The Russo-German War, Seaton The Road to Stalingrad, Erikson The Road to Berlin, Erikson Operation Barbarossa, Fugate Hitler's Decision to Invade Russia, Cecil Decision in Normandy, d'Este Ostfront 1944, Buchner Barbarossa, Clark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimR Posted July 6, 2002 Share Posted July 6, 2002 Antony Beevor's two books on Stalingrad and Berlin are unforgettable. See <www.antonybeevor.com> for details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzgndr Posted July 6, 2002 Share Posted July 6, 2002 I recommend any beginner of WWII history to read Liddell Hart's classic "History of the Second World War." For grand strategy gaming on the SC scale, it's perfect. "Panzer Leader" by Guderian and "Panzer Battles" by Mellethin are also excellent reads covering a broad spectrum of european and north african operations. SC may be just a fun game, but it's sure to generate interest in WWII history for a new generation of young gamers. And you know what that leads to ... crusty old grognards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl G. E. von Mannerheim Posted July 6, 2002 Author Share Posted July 6, 2002 At what age do you become a crusty old gamer, in my family, i have to play the part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magyar Khan Posted July 6, 2002 Share Posted July 6, 2002 I read enuf, release it.... http://www.wolves.tiscaliweb.nl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
husky65 Posted July 6, 2002 Share Posted July 6, 2002 Originally posted by Straha: Some more bungling on the side of the Soviets, and some less on the side of the Germans could have toppled the balance in 41 and even still in 42. The longer we wait, the less this plays a role, so the logistics factor gets ever more dominant later on. In 43, everything is pretty much decided already (even if Kursk would have gone the other way, the Axis would not have won). Edit: the war was won/lost in Russia. That is I assume that if the USSR would have surrendered somewhere in 41/42, then the US/UK would not have tried to stage an invasion and there would have been a de facto truce.Nope, Germany was still done for, even if Germany had got Russian factories into production quickly it would not have mattered, they would have faced too many possible attacks from too many directions and Russian production had topped out, US production could have increased a lot more. Look at axis plus Russian Oil production V allied production as well. Consider German factories (inc those in a captured Russia) being bombed from England, Africa, India and Japan/China - using B17s, B24s and B29s plus Lancasters and later Lincolns. Throw in a steady stream of atomic bombs and the Germans will not fare well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watchdog Posted July 6, 2002 Share Posted July 6, 2002 CVM: I have a book called "Hitler's War" by Hugh Dalton, M.P. Is this by chance the one you mentioned in your 1st post. I was given it by a WW2 war correspondent. Printed in England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl G. E. von Mannerheim Posted July 6, 2002 Author Share Posted July 6, 2002 No it isn the one i have is written by: Heinz Magenheimer , but ill check that one out too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Brown Posted July 6, 2002 Share Posted July 6, 2002 A book I recommend is "Why the Allies Won", by Richard Overy, Pimlico, 1995. He discusses the economic, moral, leadership, and martial factors that led to the Allied victory in WWII. He concentrates on Germany, the USA, and the USSR, and is weak on Britain, Japan, and Italy. His thesis is that an Allied victory was not a forgone conclusion. Certainly the odds were on the Allied side, especially as the war drew on, but (all things being equal - an important caveat), more mistakes by the Allies and fewer by the Germans could have led to a different outcome. Other people have talked about the vast economic disparity between the Allies and the Axis during the war, and one of the interesting sidenotes to that pointed out by Overy is the relative efficiency of the two sets of economies. For example, in 1943, the USSR turned 8 million tons of steel and 90 million tons of coal into 24,000 tanks and 48,000 heavy guns. German turned 30 million tons of steel and 340 million tons of coal into 17,000 tanks and 27,000 heavy guns. (The full story is of course more complex, but this is a nice snapshot of the relative economic situation). As for the disparity in armoured vehicles, and the 'unbeatable' battlefield doctrine of German combined arms, I've always felt that question was answered quite nicely in May of 1945. [ July 06, 2002, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: David Brown ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl G. E. von Mannerheim Posted July 7, 2002 Author Share Posted July 7, 2002 OK, I'm only 50 pages in, but this in the most in depth look at the startegies of the german armed forces on the grand scale ever. You all must get Hitler's War: Germany's Key Strategic Decisions 1940-1945 By Heinz Magenheimer Published by Cassel Military Paperbacks Get it now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta Posted July 7, 2002 Share Posted July 7, 2002 Sounds good! Im going to have to pick some of these up, or order them from amazon as soon as Im finished with Volume 4 of 'The Hurtgen Forest' and Barbarossa (forgot the name of the author). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Von Bismarck Posted July 7, 2002 Share Posted July 7, 2002 My favorite what if would be...What if Germany had foregone the invasion of Poland until a later date, say 1943 or even later, and therefore, would have had sufficient time to build up the military and industrial base that could have sustained the type of operations that would have brought total victory on two fronts, and on the open seas. Don't get me wrong I was never a Nazi fascist, or in any way a Hitler fan, but I am amazed, and will continue to be amazed at how quickly and decisively the German people could rise from the ashes of, and bondage of the treaty of Versaille, and WWI, to completely dominate the European continent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzgndr Posted July 8, 2002 Share Posted July 8, 2002 At what age do you become a crusty old gamer I forget. Seriously, once you get past the thrill of playing a "fun" wargame and start digging into the history behind the battles, you begin to appreciate whatever accuracy and realism go into the game design. When you stop having fun, that's when you become a crusty old gamer. And I'm not there yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bTNFdp Posted July 8, 2002 Share Posted July 8, 2002 - Hitler's "Mein Kampf" - That way you will know the man... - Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" - That way you will know war (as seen by a Chinese general older than Christ...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl G. E. von Mannerheim Posted July 9, 2002 Author Share Posted July 9, 2002 Sun Tzu is good, but liddel hart's STRATEGY is better, Erwin Rommel even admitted using harts stratgies on the battlefeild many times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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