RevengeMD Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 I'd like to suggest that everyone here take a glance at the following page: 10 Rules of PBM It is somewhat dated but I think it still applies to PBeM just as much today as it did to snail mail games of yesterday. My favorites are I, II, & IX. Any comments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disorder Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 excellent post! as having never played PBEM til SC, i messed up on some. needs to be politely attached to first e-mail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 RevengeMD Agreed with disorder and thanks for posting it. I've always felt it was more polite to surrender lost games and go on to a new one. In chess this would be the courteous thing to do as nearly all chess experts know how to turn even a slight advantage into a win -- I'm not talking about material, necessarily, but more often a winning position. If it's the opposite in war games, where there's a greater element of chance, I guess that's also an acceptable view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDG Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 I don't mind concession in SC if both agree. PBEM could take another month real time to finish off the war as one side takes all the pieces, some times starting a new one is the way to go. I will have to remember that some opponents want to go to the end no matter what. I'm in a PBEM now where my opponent was going to concede, and I let him know that I thought he still had a great chance to win, well, we are very close now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve C Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 RevengeMD/Dean, Those are good guidelines, but I concur with some other posters, Conceding is not always a bad thing, provided you give your opponent his due. For example, take our game when you threw me way off the Barbarossa timetable with the Double Gambit. What would have been the point of continuing that to the bitter end against a player of your caliber ? I think the other extreme can be worse - to borrow John's chess analogy - the kind of player who makes you queen your pawn and then walk his king to tne edge of the board for a checkmate instead of having the class to resign a hopeless position. I have never had a problem with an opponent conceding a game, or even dropping it for personal reasons, providing he lets me know about it and doesn't just disappear. Then there was the guy over on the Blitz HQ forum who would register as a newbie, start up a few games, and when things would start to go poorly (as they always did), would then fake his own death (with a note from his Mom, the Belgian police, etc.), log in as another alias and start all over again. [ May 21, 2003, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: Steve C ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 " [...]there was the guy over on the Blitz HQ forum who would register as a newbie, start up a few games, and when things would start to go poorly (as they always did), would then fake his own death (with a note from his Mom, the Belgian police, etc.), log in as another alias and start all over again." Excellent, Steve -- I'd give that lunatic a perfect 10 for being creative! I wonder what he's known as at the General Forum? [ May 21, 2003, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigleth Pilisar Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Fantastic PBEM rules. They are appropriate for any game play, not just PBEM. I am a big fan of PBEM and have met several very good SC players. I've got to watch a tendency to whine when I leave enemy units at strength 1 without finishing them off or yapping about having too many partisan's pop up against me . (violating the 1st rule!) I think rule IIX suggests not to ask third parties for advice on gameplay while a game is going on, which I agree with. However, advice itself is something I always seek with other PBEM players and find them often willing to share. At the end of major battles, after the use of key tactics or as a final review after the game I enjoy both giving and getting feedback. I hope the new Z-ladder accepts PBEM Ladder games, which is really the only way I can play... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Tigleth You're exactly what the Z-Ladder is looking for. The whole idea is for PBEM competition and not to have play being obsessed with competitiveness. This is a tournament for people who just want to have fun playing. Hope you'll sign up for it. Actually, it isn't a ladder, it's a simple elimination tournament. My friend disorder is the organizer and responsible party and I'm helping out a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaylord Focker Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 So farting is ok i assume then? Or should one exscuse himself afterwards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Post 3601 joins it's predecessors with amazing consistancy. [ May 22, 2003, 02:06 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka of Carthage Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Hmmmmm..... Those PBM rules were written back in the days of Play by Mail. As in Postal Mail, aka snail mail. Things were slightly different back then. How many of you remember watching the postman making his way down your street and sometimes being so impatient, you actually would go ask for your mail before he got to your house? It took a bit of time to set up for the game. Either in someone having to purchase some sort of computerized system to keep track of the map and pieces or you actually set up the map and pieces in a spare room or garage and threatened family members and pets with death if they went in there. And remember the conventions and tournaments? Thats where us oldtimers would meet other people who played the games we liked (never say they were like us, because some of those folks were strange), we'd set up in a hotel room, drink (beer or liquor) and eat (pizza or burger run) and play all day and night( you weren't a wargamer unless you smelled!). Guess what has replaced this? Give you a hint, you are in it right now. Alot of the posts have shown how things have changed. The setup time is non-existent anymore. For those of you who complain while waiting for your TCP opponent to connect, we oldies used to need as much as two weeks (or longer) to do the initial setup and get ready to perform the first move. Remember getting real creative and mounting the maps on the wall with a metal backing, then putting your counters in magnetic holders that were sold just for that purpose? "Locked in combat" and "stacking" had special meanings all of thier own. Moves are not measured in terms of once a month or once a week anymore. Its more like once a day or faster now. The cursing part is kinda obsolete, as the only one who can hear you is your computer so its ok. So I think rule number II, should be retired: II. Thou shalt not concede (especially if you begin with the initiative). If you have ever played Terif or some of the other SC veterans, they have shown the way rule IV has evolved. IV. Thou shalt make allowances for novices. If you want some advice, feel free to ask. Rule number VIII, (VIII not IIX yes?), should be retired as well. What we consider strategy tips are not what this rule was trying to deal with. And the circumstance it is addressing doesn't really exist anymore. IIX. Thou Shalt not solicit "detailed" advice from others... sending your "board" to a more experienced player for detailed advice is absolutely bad form. I would amend this for a TCP game though, to state that Thoul Shalt not hijack the posted TCP address of another player. Lastly, this rule used to be conditional. X. Thou shalt maintain thy sense of humor.Unless it was a tournament. Then, we played for "blood" as in , if you didn't know what you were doing, you could watch the masters once you got eliminated, cause nobody was gonna help you or be nice to you. So, in honor of this Brave New World, how about this... Lets get some replacements for Rules number II and IIX and vote on amending Rule IV. Then lets take the revised 10 rules and post them in the New Player thread sticky. How does that sound? Brainfart... do you realize that we are Citizens in this Athenian Democracy (a true Democracy as long as you are a citizen), where citizenship is determined by owning a PC? And Mr H is Zeus. So I ask you God Zeus, when are you gonna split your head open and let out Dianna? I've got the need to, lets say, go hunting in the moonlight. [ May 22, 2003, 03:01 AM: Message edited by: Shaka of Carthage ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevengeMD Posted May 22, 2003 Author Share Posted May 22, 2003 I am not an expert in multi-part quoting so please excuse my simplistic reply. First off I did not write the rules I linked to. I came across them by accident and thought they were very good and wanted to share them with you all here. Second, in 85-87 at Andrews AFB those of us in the WarGamers club actually played War in the East AND War in the West AT THE SAME TIME with upwards of a dozen people rotating in and out. One of our members who lived in base housing gave up his basement for just under two YEARS! I never asked how his wife made him pay for that. But I digress. Third, It was ALWAYS pizza because nobody would ever volunteer to leave for a burger run. I also seem to remember that the strange people always seemed to be from Carthage or some such silly place. Fourth, perhaps Rule VIII (I did not write them remember) could be changed to something along the lines of Thou shall play your own games against your opponent without second or third opinions while the game is in progress. Fifth, I don't think Rule IV needs modifying at all. The essence is still as valid via TCP play as PBeM and the more experience players should encourage the novices to learn the subtleties so they are better opponents later on. And lastly I disagree on replacing Rule II. I think it OK in this day and age to OFFER to concede but the offer should not be made until all hope is gone and NOT when the tide has just turned and you know you won't win. The dialogue you have established with your opponent should be the guide here. In SC for example, you as the Axis not taking France until March '41 should not necessarily be an automatic concession. You do not really know how weak the UK position might be because of the tenacious defense of France could have left the British Isles wide open for a Sealion of even the smallest proportions. Let your opponent's demeanor be your guide. As for Rule X, when 'money' is on the table (tourney, etc.), you had better watch out because I'm coming for blood! When it is not, I will sometimes pull the craziest stunts just to see how surprised I can make someone I do very much like the idea of a concensus and then posting them as a sticky for new players (and us oldtimers) to refer to from time to time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka of Carthage Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 RevengeMD Burger run... Honey, do you and your friends want to take a break and get something to eat? No dear, but if you and the kids are going out to get something, could you bring back some stuff for us? Here's the list, thanks dear, love you, could you hurry up, we;re kinda hungry. O yea, could you stop by and get some chips and beer as well? Strangeness... I never showed up in period clothes. Does that make me normal enough? I agree with what you say about Rule IV. I meant more along the lines of offering to give the advice, if the person says yes, then give it. Some novices don't want to hear the advice. Rule II I disagree. You should be able to offer to concede whenever you want. If your opponent still wants to continue, then do so. The moment there are 10 or 11 air units lined up in England blowing away two or three units a turn, I don't care how far ahead I am, you have just gotten "inside my decision loop" and I'm so frustrated I'm ready to concede. Money on the table... I'd forgotten all about that. It was as serious as you could get once you put some money up there for the winners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Boggs Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Originally posted by JerseyJohn: Excellent, Steve -- I'd give that lunatic a perfect 10 for being creative! I wonder what he's known as at the General Forum? Undefeated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted May 22, 2003 Share Posted May 22, 2003 Jimmy Boggs -- you've done it again -- excellent! Shaka Agreed, a great idea about revising those rules into the virtual era. RevengeMD Glad you're in the revising process and period clothes would add something to the whole thing, a fine idea. [ May 22, 2003, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reepicheep Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 I hope the new Z-ladder accepts PBEM Ladder games, which is really the only way I can play...I concur with that sentiment, Tigleth. 'Twould be nice if there were something like that for us folk who only use PBEM. I did check out the tournament, JJ; but I reckon I'm an advanced intermediate and thus don't qualify. KDG actually might know better than I, as he's the only one I've been playing recently..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Reepicheep The playing level is only self-defined and at this point I can assure you some of the entrants are very good players. If you'd like to play you're more than welcome and we'd like to have you in it. As it's a sporting event it would be good if the more experienced players extended a friendly postmortem to newer players to advise them on what they might have done better. I know that was always one of the better things in chess tournaments, being able to go after a game afterwards after losing to a much stronger player and finding out the maneuvers he was calculating that perhaps I didn't have a clue about! But even that's up to the individual participants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Ranger Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 Bump - I think it would be good to have that site/letter in the 'newbie' sticky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anoldman Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 I appreciate this post RevengeMD. I am a casual/for fun/still try to win, type of player and I enjoyed the list. I sadly saw myself in some of the negatives... (disappearing act, "man you got so lucky!", asking/whining to concede/restart after Germany took a bloody nose in France...) ..and am glad that I have matured past such things while playing games. and appreciated when I saw myself reflected in the positives... (Mentioning that if he leaves his fleet in port I could attack it, Graciosly (sp?) allowing my opponents to take back turns or restart the entire game... even after sometimes only the second "turn" and often when I was playing the allies and the Germans had just taken a bloody nose in France... ) ...and am glad that I take such pride in being an enjoyable opponent to those I play against wether or not I won or lost. But, I appreciated the list RevengeMD and took it for what it was... o Try to win o Be competitive o Be fair o Be gracious o Dont cheat o Make mistakes and live with them even though you knew you actually had meant to move that Panzer unit to a different hex or just miss clicked the hex (I like to think of these as adding the randomness of misunderstood orders or "for the lack of a horseshoe nail...") o Trust that his luck in the dice are fair luck and not replayed turns or loaded dice... o Fight hard until the bitter end -- usually your opponent will offer you a chance to concede after drubbing you for a few turns (games get boring no matter which side of the land slide you are on -- although always remeber that the greatest stories are the ones that sprang from the most hopeless situations or odds of vitory...) o Not all games should be balanced -- war rarely is o Always respect and appreciate your opponents... Hmmm... I guess those are the ones that spring to the top of mind. Anyhoo, the point is -> Thanks again for the link RevengeMD, I enjoyed it and saved for the future. --An Old Man p.s. Concerning the offering my opponent advice or a "heads up" (ref: turkey comment) I have learned to really give a thought to the opponents level of play thus far, his admitted expierence, and how far into the game I am. I remember a very fun opponent named Hueristic (sp?) who left open the little city hex in the netherlands area (Lol, ok, so I did say I play more for fun than for being able to recite the middle name of every general in the war type of player... although... I would point out... "Tiberius" ) Point is, I took Hue's bait and he smashed up my valuable panzer unit with a combined sea and air bombardment, and swept back in with a strength 10 Inf. I thought he had made a mistake but it was a calculated bait/move. Just a thought before you "educate" your opponent and perhaps eat your hat when the drubbing begins... [ June 26, 2003, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: An Old Man ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hueristic Posted June 28, 2003 Share Posted June 28, 2003 Originally posted by JerseyJohn: Reepicheep The playing level is only self-defined and at this point I can assure you some of the entrants are very good players. If you'd like to play you're more than welcome and we'd like to have you in it.I also was interested but felt i might be on the higher side but if it's ok with others i would volunteer to be Reeps first challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hueristic Posted June 28, 2003 Share Posted June 28, 2003 Originally posted by An Old Man: I appreciate this post RevengeMD. I am a casual/for fun/still try to win, type of player and I enjoyed the list.Yes we had alot of fun games "Old Man" Haven't seen you lately. I took some time off. You thinking about getting in this PBEM league? Toss me off a turn if you wanna. LOL i had forgot about that setup thx for the chuckle it brought. Your Humor as well as your gameplay was always welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaylord Focker Posted June 28, 2003 Share Posted June 28, 2003 WHat i'm wondering is if it is considered proper PBEM etiqutte if when you start to lose, or start to win big you send an e-mail with no turn attached titled, Lap my Bag!!!!!, and then stop sending any turns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted June 28, 2003 Share Posted June 28, 2003 Mr Focker As always you've found a vital area begging for clarification. And a good point. Hueristic, Old Man and Reepacheep The next PBEM Tournament disorder and myself are planning will use a scenario Panzer39 has been working on and that we've been playtesting. I think it's an improvement on the scenario being used in the present tournament. Sorry you guys weren't in this one. We can always have another PBEM Tournament running if anyone is interested in directing it. It could be a Round Robin where everyone plays everyone else. Personally I wouldn't worry about playing level as there's no objective way to judge it and also these are not really competitive events. My big fear with a Round Robin is that some one will ". . .start to lose, or start to win big ...[and]... send an e-mail with no turn attached titled, Lap my Bag!!!!!, and then stop sending any turns." (Gaylord the Great) Fortunately I haven't seen too many Forum Members who would behave that way. I guess we'd need to impose a time limit on return moves. [ June 28, 2003, 05:24 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill101 Posted June 28, 2003 Share Posted June 28, 2003 Hello Having experienced people conceding on me a number of times, I'd like to say that while I wouldn't necessarily deny people the right to do so, what has been frustrating about it is spelt out in rule II. In addition, I couldn't always see that my opponent was losing. It all boils down to the player's morale, and conceding is fine when you're really about to lose, but when the enemy are still hundreds of miles from your capital then it is bad form. To have an opponent concede simply because they FEEL that they are losing, robs the game of it's pleasure. I've suffered probably the worst, most humiliating defeat ever as Axis, failing to even conquer France, but I had great fun trying to defend Germany from the Allied counter-attack in 1941. As Axis, I'd say that it's fine to concede once Germany has surrendered and only minor allies are left. As Allies, once the UK and Russia have fallen. But if you're losing, perhaps you should ask your opponent's opinion before conceding. Generally I think that we learn best when we are in a tough situation, outnumbered and with the enemy banging on our door. If you don't want to do so badly next time, then I'd recommend fighting on to the bitter end. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted June 28, 2003 Share Posted June 28, 2003 "I promise I won't quit my PBEM game. I have 50 years to play, if I get internet access in the Big House." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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