The Great War

[Geordie Irish]

This game is great. Would it be possible for a mod to create a WW1 game from it or would it require a complete redesign??

[AOK_4]

I agree, a similar game about WW1 would be great!

[Compassion]

I feel like I'm in one at the moment... Germany can't get the bulk it needs to grind at the french and the approaches have pretty well been secured by the Frogs as well... All mountain and river defenses as far as the eye could see.

[J Wagner]

Check out the info from the link below for a potential WWI strategic game entitled TRENCH. I'll give it a whirl............

http://www.adanaccommandstudies.com/IntroTrench.html

[GWDWD]

Originally posted by Compassion:

I feel like I'm in one at the moment... <snip>

Actually, Compassion and Geordie, you took the words right out of my mouth.

First game ever I played (as the Allies versus the AI at the default settings), I managed to halt the German assault in the east and it quickly turned into a war of attrition. "Wow, this feels like WWI", I thought to myself. "I bet a WWI game like this would be fun."

I second (or third or fourth or whatever) the motion, but it's obviously going to have to be a new game rather than a mod. But the idea is a great one.

Guy

[Edited for spelling. Attition? What the heck is that??]

[ August 14, 2002, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: GWDWD ]

[J Wagner]

So the issues raised here begs the question; do you feel as if the game represents the true nature of German blitzkrieg tactics, especially from 39 to 41? Without movement after combat, exploitation movement, and a fairly liberal reinforcment rule, it does end up turning into a war of attrition and a grist mill.

[Sol Invictus]

Hey Wagner, Ive already pre-ordered my copy of Trench, looks like it will be a very nice game.

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

I still believe this game allows full exploitation of blitzkreig tactics, you just have to learn how to use them within the perimters of the present engine.

CVM

[GWDWD]

Originally posted by J Wagner:

So the issues raised here begs the question; do you feel as if the game represents the true nature of German blitzkrieg tactics, especially from 39 to 41?

Hey! Why do you assume there's something wrong with the game? Maybe I'm just the best gosh darn SC player in (its 2-week) history and can shut down the blitzkrieg in no time flat?

(Uh oh, I think I can feel some PBEM game set-up files arriving in my inbox...)

Seriously, I think it's awfully close to the blitzkrieg tactics.

Guy

[Camicie Nere]

I raised this issue once a long time ago before I knew what the limitations of the editor were going to be. I think the SC engine is tremendous and very adaptable and could easily model the Great War. For instance, you could drop the attack and movement values values of the infantry a tad, turn the first 3 levels of armor into cavalry, and perhaps use the rocket unit types to model chemical weapons (I'd make the max range at 2 hexes but progressively increase the amount of damage they'd inflict.)

Overall, the attack values of offensive units would have to be a bit lower vis-a-vis their WWII counterparts. But that said, pretty much every significant SC/WWII dynamic was present in 1914-18. Fighter aircraft. Strategic Bombing. Increasing levels of technology. Battle of the Atlantic. Political shifts among the protagonists and minor countries. Fun stuff, and it probably would not be difficult to implement a few extra models and dynamics (i.e. trade-offs of whacking Brit MPPs with U-boats at the cost of increasing the US likelihood of war entry. Perhaps an abstract "blockade" model by which Central Powers MPPs could be progressively bled off. Maybe some sort of "war weariness"/political collapse factor to represent such events as the 1917 French mutiny and fall of Nicky and subsequently Kerensky.)

The least of what you would need from the editor function:

-Ability to redraw national borders

-Deletion of some minor countries (i.e. FINLAND, HAH!!!!!!!!)

-Adding two more "major" countries to the mix (Austria and Ottoman Empire)

-Some control over modeling the conditions for entry of neutral countries

Damn! I am getting myself too excited talking about that. HC, I know you don't want to surrender too much control over your game engine via the editor, but I think it could totally turn SC into an enduring wargaming classic if you did. Steel Panthers/PZ General II territory - still played, modded, and popular after many years.

I love SC and am totally of the inclination to make incredibly-detailed and rigorously-accurate custom scenarios but am discouraged from doing so by the limitations of the editor.

If HC/BB plan a WWI SC game for down the road, then allow me to be the first to preorder. But if not, allow me to MAKE one. On my own time and dime, seeking no compensation other than the enjoyment of adapting my all-time favorite wargame to my all-time favorite conflict.

(Sorry for the Finland crack, CVM - couldn't resist.)

Oh, DAMN! What about the Napoleonic era? I better stop before I get too depressed over my own inability to write computer code.

[Guest Mike]

Y'know with a more versatile editor you could do nifty little things like the 1912-13 Balkan wars!!

Come to think of it though - tanks as cavalry??

Nah!!

avalry (horsed) was pretty crappy - and "tank" armies were actually all infantry!!

So I'd have tanks and storm tactics as research topics I think.

Dunno whether they'd be any different from each other or not - I'm reminded of SPI's wonderful little WW1 game from eth mid 70's where tanks and stosstruppen had the same effect - you had to retreat a hex if they inflicted enough casualties.

Ah - that was a neat wee game - all German armies were 4 attack/6 defence, all French were 4/3, the BEF was 4/6, all other Brits were 4/4, Turks were 1/4, Russians 3/3 but took double losses from German attacks, Austrians & other minor powers were 2/3 I think.

all combat was by factor differential rather than odds - so a German army attacking a French one was at +1 (4 attacking defence of 3), 2 x French ones attacking a German one +2 (2 x 4 = 8 attacking a defence of 6), etc.

All losses were in resource points, except there were times when you could sacrifice whole armies and some times when you had to retreat - and a hex was a long way so forcing a retreat was a big deal!!

and there weer no damned paratroopers, and amphibious assault/movement was limited to 1 army per turn or month or 6 months or somethnig like that - the Allies could open a Southern Front at Gallipoli or Greece, but not both, no fleets and no aircraft!!

[ August 15, 2002, 12:34 AM: Message edited by: Mike ]

[Brian Rock]

There are authors who argue that to some extent blitzkrieg was more PR than military doctrine. For example, Colonel Robert Doughty's article "The Myth of Blitzkrieg":

http://web.mit.edu/ssp/fall98/doughty.htm

and a more extensive working of this thesis at:

http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usassi/ssipubs/pubs98/chalngng/chalngng.pdf

Maybe SC is does the job better than some of the OTT panzers-on-heat games. Just some food for thought...

[J Wagner]

Originally posted by Sol Invictus:

Hey Wagner, Ive already pre-ordered my copy of Trench, looks like it will be a very nice game.

Same here, looking forward to it...they are also revamping ACW which I'll pick up...

Camacie: Interested in a Strategic level Napoleonic Game? Check this out:

http://www.matrixgames.com/Games/NapoleonicWars/features.asp

Another game for my list...though a bit pricey

[ August 15, 2002, 07:39 AM: Message edited by: J Wagner ]

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

Originally posted by CN

Deletion of some minor countries (i.e. FINLAND, HAH!!!!!!!!)

On secong thought i dont like this idea anymore, just kidding we all have to sacrifice. But pehaps the game could depicts the Finninsh Independence war against russia. I hear the Finns had a good general for that one, what was him name........

Uh, CvM

[Sol Invictus]

Wagner, sounds like our wishlists are identical. I pre-ordered ACW4 as well and I'm closely watching for Napoleonic Wars. Medieval Total war went Gold today and all these other great military games either out, or soon to be; it's a great time to be a wargammer.

[Straha]

Originally posted by J Wagner:

So the issues raised here begs the question; do you feel as if the game represents the true nature of German blitzkrieg tactics, especially from 39 to 41? Without movement after combat, exploitation movement, and a fairly liberal reinforcment rule, it does end up turning into a war of attrition and a grist mill.

Well, it *is* something I had a bit of a hard time getting used to. I mean often you blast a hole into the enemies frontline, but then you are not able to exploit it: because you already have attacked you may not move (and you basically also stand in the way of your own units which haven't yet moved). If this would be handled different (at least for the tanks), then the frontlines would be less static.

Straha

[ August 15, 2002, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: Straha ]