I vote no against Zapps rule change and WITHDRAW from ZAPP-LEAGUE

[Terif]

Zapp made clear that he is not willing to abolish his "anti-Terif" rule made for his personnel advantage, even if all members of the Z-League would vote against it. So I vote with my feets...

All my outstanding Z-League games are CANCELLED I am sorry for that, but I am not willing to play a ZL game any more. I love playing SC, so you will probably meet me again some day in a "fun" game .

For details about the reason for my withdrawel read:

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=002893;p=1

Unfortunally I just had to recognice that Zapps rule changes also hinders me to withdraw immediately. But I will delete my account as soon as possible. I hope it will be possible when the challenge expires...

ERROR

You cannot withdraw when you have a formal challenge outstanding!

You need to play Zappsweden or wait until after Wednesday, December 31 to withdraw.

Copyright 2003, MyLeague.com/Case's Ladder, Inc.

[jon_j_rambo]

Terif --- If you're withdrawing, why should people bother to vote?

Zapp --- Is there a vote?

[zappsweden]

Ok, mr hotshot. Hear me out.

I have created and administered SC World Championship Ladder.

I have created and administered Z-League.

I have put in hours and hours of work for my hobby.

I make one rule change that obviously does not suit mr Hotshot. Disrepectfully you go shouting out loud putting ultimatums and threats and eventually retires. Thankyou very much for showing you gratitude and thrust for someone putting in alot of effort into Strategic Command.

You are not the noble knight you claim to be.

[zappsweden]

And another thing, there IS no vote. You aint listening to what I have said before.

In the league, we vote on stuff that influences how a game of SC is played (handicaps, houserules) not how the rankings behave.

We had no voting about

"days of inactivity before top-10 player is dropped"

"Days of inactivity before played is deleted"

"rank gain in a win"

and all the other in the RULESET of myleague. there are eleven rules in the ruleset. The challenge system is by default activated when creating a league. I deactivated it instantly because I had no idea how it worked and thought I might give it a thought later.

[ September 24, 2003, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[jon_j_rambo]

This is not a good situation. What can I do help resolve this matter? Can we meet on Commonground?

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." Isaiah 1:18, KJV 1611.

Camp Rambo is concerned

[Terif]

Rambo:

As Zapp stated: there is no vote. And here he is right. It is a personnel thing between me and him. The rule in reality doesnt effect other people than both of us, so no need to vote for the league members.

Thank you for your offer. But I cant see that I want to play ever again against Zapp after his behaviour. If this would happen vs any other player it would be no problem: I could simply ignore him. But he makes the rules and changed the rules, so if I would stay he could force me to play him...

So I prefer to go

I wish everyone a lot of fun with SC, it is a great game. My dispute with Zapp is a personnel thing and should nobody else hinder to play and enjoy this excellent game.

[zappsweden]

My behaviour?

I have done nothing wrong. I challenged you, I called you out. SC is competition i.e nothing for the faint-hearted. If u cannot take a challenge ("forced to play" as you put it) that is not my problem.

One system enables the champ to chooce his challenger. The other system lets challengers call the Champion out. If one system is better or worse than the other is irrelevant.

You only had to accept the challenge, play once and then continue playing whoever you want. That was too much to ask obviously.

[ September 24, 2003, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[Kuniworth]

Oh well well lookie lookie. Even the top nod cant stay friends interesting stuff indeed.

I dont care a bit for the challenger-system as this only is a discussion for the "upper-class" of SC in their stupid internal fights. We, the rest of the players are as always not involved in this and are expected to simply adjust to the elite's latest invention.

Instead of promoting SC your ignorant-behaviour is destroying all the fun in this community. Actually all this competitive stuff have killed the purpose of this game. BriantheWise commited suicide and now Terif's life is falling apart due to this stuf. Shame on you jet level 5 Punks!!!

This is like Rollerball with Terif in the role of Jonathan Cross. Can one man dominate the game-play singlehandedly or not. If Terif retires will he be back or not? Can he stay away or will addiction force him back. I TELL YA, WHO CARES!!! NOT ME FOR ONE!!!

I hate you all. This game has ruined my social life. No one ever took my side when things were rough so dont expect any sympathy any more from me. But I can tell you this;

Zap -

challenge system is unnecessary.

Terif -

You are such a nirritating individual. For long enough people avoided critisize you because you are the best player. Well no more of that crap Mister Terrible!!! You keep telling everybody to keep on fighting and then quit when things does´nt suit you??? Damn punk!!!! So what you lose the title because you dont have time to take on a challenge? Well just take it back then!!! Stop this nonsense talk just because your self-esteem is related to winning in SC.

I'm sick of you defending gamey moves(carrier & interception bugs) and flaws like spain-gambit and then exploit it later by using a new strategy. You are not an honest and genuin champ, but someone who must win at all cost.

I liked you alot before. You were a real champ helping newbies and beeing a sport always teaching me and others new moves. Now your only defensive and bitter. That want cut it, I want the old Terif back.

Rambo -

coming together? compromise? such a load of crap. Do you tell that to Al-Qaida too? You used to be hard, now you are soft and make me puke. Once you rocked this forum, now you are just old and tired. No one cares about your stuff anymore, you lost the edge man.

I consider you and Jersey my friends. So dear friend get a grip on yourself. Rise up to the challenges again, eye of the strategic tiger man.

Conclusion; You are all a bunch of sissies. Soon my patience will run out and I will only stick around in this forum to bring mayhem.

"The truth shall set you free"

Bible-quote

[ September 25, 2003, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: Kuniworth ]

[JerseyJohn]

As an outside observer -- by now I've established that I only play SC recreationally -- allow a few very simple comments:

A hundred years ago most sports considered the Top Title to be the personal possession of it's current holder. The only incentive for giving a challenger a shot at it was to raise a purse and make some money.

That doesn't apply here, so the concept has to be different.

Championships, these days, are usually in effect for a set duration and need to be defended when that period expires. When Bobby Fischer defeated Boris Spassky in 1972 he became World Chess Champion, when he refused to play against the next challenger, who'd arrived there exactly as Fischer had three years earlier, the title was taken away from him. He continued calling himself the World Champion, but everybody in organized Chess recognized Karpov, not Fischer, as being the current Champion by default.

What is the Duration in SC? Obviously it shouldn't be very long between challenges, not three years or even a year, but what is it? Does winning the Championship mean the Champion has to be available to fight off challenges two days later? Once a week?

Why not make it something reasonable, say a month, after which time the reigning champ has to play his closest rival or forfeit the Title to that challenger. There has to be some sort of time frame or the whole thing becomes meaningless. So there might be 12 champions in a single year, if the competition is that intense it would be justified. But the Champion shouldn't have to go through life with challengers breathing down his neck every day; once a month would be hard enough for anyone.

[ September 24, 2003, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Comrade Trapp]

Zappsweden

I don't want you to take this the wrong way, I like you, you are one of the main people on this forum that have worked hard at improving SC, you have turned the idea of having a ladder into reality from the otter failure that it was. But this challenge system is wrong.

I don't play SC to be competitive, I play to have fun. Yes I like being on Z-League, its a challenge to climb the ranks and it feels good to get a win and find out that you are one rank higher then you were before. But it all boils down to the fact that I really don't care who is what rank.

When Leopard for example stated playing, he was getting his ass kicked by everyone for his first month of playing SC.

He as since kicked my ass playing my own house rules and fought his way to being ranked number 5 on Z-League. That is no small accomplishment.

Do I care that I got my ass kicked? No, I say all the power to him.

The bottom line is that pretty much all of us play SC and on Z-League for fun, its nice to see who is ranked where, but no one really cares if someone is higher then them.

I have never seen Terif or really anyone else for that matter; turn down a challenge if they were available for a game. Therefore, I feel this challenge system is completely unnecessary.

Since this is turning into such a big issue, I say we put it to a vote.

If the challenge system is kept without voting on it, I feel Z-League will be too competitive and it will take away a lot of the fun.

Therefore I will withdraw from Z-League if the challenge system is left in place without voting on it.

Comrade Trapp

[jon_j_rambo]

Puniworth --- I'm getting weak, for what? Trying to keep the League together? The purpose of the League is to keep the competition going. It was created after the BrianTheWise meltdown & the "Rambo vs Zappsweden" Pay-Per-View-Event.

Spanish Gambit --- I could care less about this strategy, or any other strategy (gambit) for that matter. Play how you want to play. Long as I can pick sides, or there is a bid system...all is fair in love & war. Funny thing is, people bitched about the Spanish Gambit...I beat Terif. Terif thought of a cool strategy & should be rewarding the credit & glory. I don't understand the bitching about it. Everybody hates "sit on your ass UK strategy", Terif thinks of something new, and people bitch. Whatever, play how you want.

Zappsweden --- Yes, you are the creator of the Z-League, we thank you for that. You do have certain powers. You also have the implicit duty of keeping the league together. Would Peter Uberoth (ran MLB for a long time, successfully)make rules without the Union & Owner's vote? Terif may have dodged you for a small period of time, but he still played you 3-times in the last month. So was he really dodging you? Big deal, he was beating some rookies to practice (have fun) some new moves. Your rule still doesn't improve that. Another thing to consider, Terif hasn't been the only Champ in Z-League. I'm sitting on 2-titles myself You use the term "calling somebody out", yes, that is good. But using a rule isn't "calling somebody out". If you were going to go after Terif for "draft dodging", use smack, not a rule book. For the better of the league, I would withdraw your rules...then start a new thread, calling Terif a "Draft-Dodger" (I don't think he is). Also consider this, you're not the only one who wants to play Terif.

Terif --- Your game record & amount of games played speak for themselves. I believe you held the Crown (except for my 2-Crowns) in an honorable fashion. You have given me many shots at the title. I too, gave you quick chances to take the title back. I could have sat for 24-days, then played a rookie to keep the title. That's not my style. On a different subject, I do believe your withdrawl from SC-CUP is not right. Just because you might possibly play Zappsweden in a later round is not a good enough reason to quit that competition, SC-CUP is seperate from this. I believe Zappsweden was upset since you were playing weaker players instead of him (during a very limited time). Anyhow, I understand why you don't feel like playing...but don't go too far.

Sir Jersey --- Thanks for input. Moral of this story is simple, you can't change the heart of men with rules.

"The problem isn't playing Terif, the problem is beating Terif." --- Rambo's ICQ comment to Zappsweden about this issue.

"No wonder all the World Wars start in Europe, the Euros can't get along" --- Rambo on History

"Can't we all just get along" --- Rodney King

Getting headcracked sucks.

[ September 24, 2003, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

[Dan Fenton]

I am not familiar with the current controversy.

However, I would like to mention that upon every occasion that I have asked Terif a question, he quickly responded in a very pleasant manner. His answers improved the Strategy Guide that many now enjoy.

I never noticed Terif to brag about his many accomplishments. He seemed to be a good sport about the very few times that he actually lost. Terif has behaved in a consistantly polite and considerate manner for the many months that I have followed this board. I have not seen him to be so worked up about something until now.

Is there not some mutually acceptable way to work out this controversy?

[Codename Condor]

Terif- uve got all the right to withdraw. And nobody should claim about your leave, if tehy read what happened nobody will. U have played an incredible amount of games and share your knowledge of the game and although people could say u tend to play gamey moves sometimes, i dont think u play to win at all cost but to have fun and for love of the game. :eek:

Zapp- its very clear its your league, u made that clear when u named the ladder. Running ladders deserves merit as it is time consuming but u cant go changing rules without consensus just because u wanna be number 1. I think u play to win at all costs. :confused:

JerseyJhon- u must be siting in your chair thinking: ladders, competitions... oh boys im having all the fun of the game playing for fun, with crazy biased scenarios! no fuss never! U r right, playing for fun makes it hard to get into quarrrel. But competition is good, the problem is how u take it, for me the important thing is who u play and not how high ranked he is, have fun and not play to win at all cost. im sure u are now impersonating Fagin: Behave chidren!

Kuni- calm down & leave rambo alone, dont try to make him change! Now he is kewl, im totally impressed.

Ive noticed some stress in the forum since last tiem i visited, so here goes a joke, have fun with the game, no fuss allowed!

-Mum, mum, they call me rambo in the school

-What??? How outrageous! how dare they! im gonna talk with the director right now!!!

-No mum, this is MY war.

[JerseyJohn]

Codename

-- Fagin is one of my favorite fictional characters; it's a shame Dickens gave him such a miserable end (though Hollywood treats him more kindly). I can't advise anyone to behave, however, because on more than one occasion I've had my own angry postings. Invariably these things run their course; it's a shame that this one involves two of the Forum's really likable and most important members.

You've got my philosophy regarding SC perfectly. I couldn't have improved upon it, play the game for fun and when it gets boring give one side L=5 Rockets to shake things up!

Competition makes games much more enjoyable than just sitting somewhere playing solitaire. Having played in hundreds of chess tournaments over the decades I know how good it feels to win either an important game, or an entire event. Also, how lousy it feels to be on Lady Luck's neglected side. I'vee seen it literally drive people crazy, including a frustrated kid with too much hype to live up to who quietly took his own life one fine day after a big loss. Which is not to say he wouldn't have taken it any way, over something else.

In the end it's all a bit meaningless. These days I hardly remember most of my tournaments and have only a single marble trophy base for a momento. But they all seemed extremely important at the time.

Playing any game in a truly competitive way is fine, people have a right to enjoy that, but misunderstandings always occur, even under the best of circumstances and among the best of friends.

In serious sports it's usually the best umpire or referee who gets booed instead of the worst player.

General Rambo

You're the perfect choice to pull the situation together, being one of the top players yourself and having no immediate part in the quarrel. I agree with the views you've expressed, there has to be sensible compromise in it somewhere.

My thanks to the Z League players for indulging my outsider's comments.

[ September 25, 2003, 03:34 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Puniworth --- I'm getting weak, for what? Trying to keep the League together? The purpose of the League is to keep the competition going. It was created after the BrianTheWise meltdown & the "Rambo vs Zappsweden" Pay-Per-View-Event.

It's the way you talk sonny. No more bitching, no more fun just plain "cant we get along stuff" all the time. What happened? Swinging those golf clubs takes to much time?

Actually Im getting weak too, but at least I'm aware of it.

My theory is this;

Two thing have happened here.

1. Competition killed the fun. Competing is good but the game is too addictive to keep you happy and not caring when you lose.

2. Forum is declining a bit. Less people have to do more, also mean showing new sides of their personalities = we may not like 'em. ANd we all react differently to the new situation.

As for JerseyJohn he has turned out to some sort of Gandalf-Power running around with wisdom-words and still trying to be the old one. He is like a hybrid.

Rambo is tired and got nothing funny to offer anymore.

Terif put to much into the game as Zap and now quarrels over this new rule.

Edwin reacts by putting out new wishlists everyday in a futile attempt to get a better game.

Boggs is almost gone, he pops in much lesser now.

Kuniworth - well he starts to think about getting a girlfriend instead of sitting around here. Dying for news on SC 2.

[zappsweden]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

Why not make it something reasonable, say a month, after which time the reigning champ has to play his closest rival or forfeit the Title to that challenger. There has to be some sort of time frame or the whole thing becomes meaningless.

I have incresed the challenge system to 24-days so it is now same as the 24-days inactivity limit.

He would not accept me challenging him. He interpret it as being forced to play. He was the most frequent player in the League and yet could not make a 24-day deadline...

It is a problem when someone see the crown as "rightfully mine, I earned it" because saying been playing for fun and be dead serious to be Champ are 2 roads that eventually collide.

He said to me, "I wanna take a break and play other players". I do not care if it was Terif, it was the CHAMP. If he was #10 ranked I would not care, but if a champ says he put challengers on hold on indefinate time I think it is not fair. That is why I set a limit.

That is why I was TESTING, TESTING, TESTING (how many times do I need to say it?) the challenge system to see if it worked out. How can we have an administator that gets threatened and given ultimatums every time someone disagree on certain rules?

Is it fair showing no respect at all, ruling something out and quit the league BEFORE EVEN TRYING IT OUT?

When someone said "I play to win at all cost but not Terif" they are bull****ting. Winning at all cost means you abandon any code of honour, fair play and sportsmanship just to win. Every time I found a flaw or bug in the game (interception flaw, carrier interception flaw that existed despite the patch, landing in UK without upsetting UK, flaw that some techs were not working in the scenario editor) I exposed it, I did not keep it a secret to win games with.

I shouted out loud that something was wrong and most of the time we got the changes in the next patch. Other player (Terif for instance) have the opposite view. They think "What can be done in the game, IS the game". They think nothing is gamey. The worst happens when they discover flaws and exploit then WITHOUT telling anyone. If that is not "winning at all cost", then nothing is...

I do not care if Terif and I disagree on some of the games issues, having sportmanship means you play ppl for the sake of the League. He preaches anyone who quits a game, saying that it is annoying. Then he quits the league because of a challenge, doing the thing he was complaining about before. What a hipocrasi.

If know Terif seems like the noble knight, "best thing since Elvis Presley" or god to some of you but we cannot have ppl think they stand above the league, the rules. Rules are meant to be followed. There is always someone not liking some rules, cannot make 100% happy 100% of the time. He has made it very clear that he rather hurt the league and win a personal "war" than to back down.

[ September 25, 2003, 06:27 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[Dragonheart]

So far i stepped away to involve in this discussion i thought is a matter of members which are longer involved into SC and the SC-Community.

But to tell ones opionion is free after all we all live in a democracy.

The first thing i noticed in this forum is a bold behavior ag newbies. If one is not simply ignored then he will get some title like "arshole newby" or some other kind names.

In other forums every new player is welcomed. I know that not everybody act in that manner but you get the impression that this forum is only playground for certain elite players.

The dispute between Terif and Zapp show me that not fun and friendship stand on first place here but envy and competition.

I played Terif twice and got terribly my ass kicked but he is helping a newby also in the game giving some tips and tricks. And i don´t think he is playing with newbies in order not to loose his crown. He loves that game and is happy to play with "everyone" who has time when he is ready for a game. If Zapp would have asked him in a normal way for a game, he would´t had said no to him. As Terif suggested to play him on 1st October he insisted on this challenge system. What kind of human Zapp is when he can´t wait only 1 Week for the titlefight? When i read all arguments and with common sense i have no other choice but to side with Terif.

Zapp i know you invest alot of time into the league and it´s your league but if you change rules which apply it would be a wise and nice move to make a vote. What´s about a scheduled titlefight once a month or two weeks. Not one game counts but you play best of 3 or even 5???

Come on step back we all want to have fun here, finsh the dispute with Terif and play a real title fight on 1st Oct.

[zappsweden]

Ok, Dragonheart. I challenged the champ (fooorced him to play). I should not have done that. I should have known who called the shots, the champ does whatever he want...., OR ELSE!

If that is the style ppl want, I am telling you it WONT happen. Why do ppl say they play for fun one day and the next day they are ready to quit just because they do not like a certain rule???

I just cannot get it together, why starting a war about something that is not such a big issue and has in fact not had any effect on anything so far. the answer is PRIDE.

He rather quits the league to become a marture and he wants ppl saying he is right and I am wrong. He know ppl will, because his noble image he has been playing will probably convince 70-80% of players that he has NEEEVER DONE SOMETHING WRONG. He has never backed down before and never will. When he first complained about the new rule he shouted out, gave ultimatums and threats. Yeah, that sounds like nice stuff to do. Anyone else could not do it without getting comlopaint except the noble Terif. The whole discussion becomes a logical flaw. like "If he is that serious about something then HE MUST HAVE A REASON". After he slept on it he posted that he was maybe a bit harch. Now he slept on it again. Probably he woke up in the middle of the night all sweaty. He could not live with backing down. He took it back, HE QUIT.

He would not dare accept the challenge and risk that the system would turn out to work. That would mean a prestige loss to his ego mind. He rather quits BEFORE it is tried and walks away with a moral victory. He is smart, but I aint dumb either.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Dragonheart:

The first thing i noticed in this forum is a bold behavior ag newbies. If one is not simply ignored then he will get some title like "arshole newby" or some other kind names.

In other forums every new player is welcomed. I know that not everybody act in that manner but you get the impression that this forum is only playground for certain elite players.

I agree if this is adressed to the elite. But I suspect you mean me and others so here is my reply;

What da hell are you talking about??? The problem here is not talking about newbies as arseholes but the problem is rather the lack of new players coming in. This results of course the people here will know each other wery well. That is the main reason for your statement not that we hate the little arseholes...

And I feel directlty critizised as "arsehole newbie" is what I wrote to be funny once. So why da hell are you trying to discredit me you bum???

And NO PLAYER is ignored here. We are to few left standing to afford such a luxuary.

So drop this pease of crap-talk and get a grip. Maybe Comrade Trapp called you an arsehole sometime but dont insinuate I had something to do with this. I have put awful lot of time into SC legendary quotes list, ryder cup etc to keep up interest here and now you call me an asshole???

You know what??? GO TO MEGA LARGE HELL!!!!!

GO TO HELL!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[ September 25, 2003, 06:36 AM: Message edited by: Kuniworth ]

[Dragonheart]

Don´t think i disregard your point of view, a dispute belongs always to 2 people. One word gives the other and finally nobody can step back because of proudness and other reasons.

I know that there has to be some rules to keep the system running but a challenge-system is impersonal for a fun league which it should be.

You are the adm. you have the choice of using the tools of myleague.com or not but you have also the choice of implement some own ideas. (like a best of 3 games titlefight within a certain timeframe for example)

Do you really think that one who is playing over 100 games, several games a day really want to become a marture instead of playing?? Would you do that?

Answer me another thing...did you ask him before your challenge for a game or did you leave a message or even a bid in one of his numerous SC-League Game treads?

If you did so and he declined you you are rite in any other case not but it´s not on me to decide that.

But this disput is ridicolous in any case....two grown man can´t find the golden mean. This is sad so sad......

[Dragonheart]

Kuniworth,

This tread becomes really funny, full of agressiveness.

If you read my post you will recognize that i never called you arsehole!!!!!! I was just let you all know the first impression one will unevitable get here and i did not personally insult you. If you feel so i´m sorry for that.

If you send me to the mega hell than my answer is that i´m already there.

[kurt88]

[Dragonheart]

lol

Kurt i miss the logo of SC.

"Welcome to the forum"

[JerseyJohn]

Borrowing this idea from Kurt88 --

"First I got two of them fighting with each other, then another two, then another two . . . Last time I had this much fun I was inventing Rock 'n Roll!"

[ September 25, 2003, 07:56 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[kurt88]

ROLOL