JerseyJohn Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 After reading every word of this entire thread I've got one question only -- why? How does a simple conversation about an obscure bug turn into severe antagonisms between regular posters? To begin with, Hubert says it isn't cost effective for him to fix the problem -- isn't that enough? Sure we're consumers but the final first version of any game always has bugs; in Civ, Civ II & Civ III it's little things like long obsolete phalanx and horseman units defeating modern armor! Sid Meir laughs it off and says something like, "Well, that's been corrected in the latest version of Civ -- go buy it and see if it isn't!" What Hubert is saying is it isn't a major flaw and at this point not worth the time to fix; what's the problem with that? Zapp, Rambo, I like and respect both you guys and I like and respect Immer and Macon as well. I'd hate to choose sides but if it comes down to it, the argument seems to be that anyone who isn't a hotshot big IP player has no right to state a game opinion. Since when? One thing is for certain, this Forum is starting to get like a lunatic asylum. At the very least tolerate what others are saying without insulting them in the process. That's uncalled for and shouldn't be tolerated. [ November 18, 2003, 04:21 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade Trapp Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Posted by Rambo: You hear about Hepatitis breakout in Pittsburgh? Never underestimate the value of bug killing. Wasn't aware that is getting national attention, a couple people from my high school decided to have a relaxing dinner at Chi-Chi's and were unfortunate enough to contract it. Closed the entire school for 3 days because one of them helped out in the school's lunch room (thats why I always eat junk food out of the vending machines, much healthier ) Americans should quit eating at those damn foreign food places and start eating at the good high quality American resurants like McDonalds. Ronald looks out for his customers unlike those damn Mexicans. Comrade Trapp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zappsweden Posted November 18, 2003 Author Share Posted November 18, 2003 Originally posted by JerseyJohn: What Hubert is saying is it isn't a major flaw and at this point not worth the time to fix; what's the problem with that? Zapp, Rambo, I like and respect both you guys and I like and respect Immer and Macon as well. I'd hate to choose sides but if it comes down to it the argument seems to be that anyone who isn't a hotshot big IP player has no right to state a game opinion. Since when? Complaining when someone finds a BUG is absurd indeed. That does not belong under the parachute experession "everyone has a right to an opinion" in my opinion. (not adressed to you specifically Jersey John) Yeah, should have known that testing the game at THIS moment mean disrespect(?) to Hubert since he said the final patch was already out. Yes, any bug found should be avoided to speak of from now on. Ok, I am with the program now guys, thanks for telling/correcting me... [ November 18, 2003, 05:11 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Zapp I'm an automatic supporter of Hubert, SC and Battlefront? Tell me you're joking. I've had things to say about the game and everything else that peeled the paint off the walls! Since the last patch I've toned it down, but to insinuate I'm anyone's sycophant is absurd so I'll assume that isn't what you're implying. Yes, bugs should be found and reported, of course! Yes, bugs in the program should be fixed, of course! Maybe he intends to do so further down the road when some more important things are taken care of. We don't know if SC2 is supposed to replace the current version or exist in addition to it, I have to assume that Hubert will announce something on the subject and that if he doesn't want to take even two or three weeks out to fix this flaw SC2 must be approaching very quickly. As for my automatic support of Hubert and SC -- no, that's too ridiculous even to consider. You've been reading my posts for a year now and you have to know I've always been the biggest critic of the game as it now stands. There have to be at least three dozen threads I've started asking for some game aspect to be changed or revised. I haven't posted one of those since the late Spring. Is that how far back the memory goes? What I'm saying is this hostile nonsense should be toned down or even stopped altogether, that's all. This Forum is starting to resemble of pack of starving dogs snapping at one another. It isn't constuctive. [ November 18, 2003, 05:00 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonheart Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Rambo ........why you insult ppl for their opinion? Zapp´s and your opinion is the AA thing is a major bug....ok i respect your opinion. Others me included say it´s no major bug so please accept our opinion too without calling everybody low minded here. How much you invested in SC 25$ ...40 $ ? anyway thats nothing especially for you...one single stock trade and you can buy hundreds of games. The quesion is how much fun you had with this xx $ you invested...100 hours, 500, 1000 or even more? And now when zapp discovered this "major bug, minor bug or feature", or whatever we all are calling it you quit playing? You, one of the best players can´t handle this thing? You cant handle it on either sides? You can´t adopt your strategies? I can´t believe that. How many games you played so far being perfect? If there were still a league and some ppl would see this as "major bug" we would have had a new house rule not to place AF into cities. Simple way to solve problems istn´t it? But there is no league anymore...so who cares? Don´t forget i do not side with anyone, it´s my opinion and if you cant come along with the AA thing than stop playing, wait for SC2, stop insulting other ppl or whatever...but just stop it. Dragonheart >>>>>> still active and satisfied SC player Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terppana Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Zapp you said: ******************** Hubert. I am very dissapointed since I though bringing bugs to the table would mean they got fixed. ******************** Im with JJ, tone it down man. Make a rule that you wont use that bug and get on with it. Hubert said he is one man shop and therefore he doesnt have time do do everything. I just CANT wait till SC2 GO HUBERT! - Terppana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Ranger Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 high quality American resurants LMFAO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zappsweden Posted November 18, 2003 Author Share Posted November 18, 2003 Dragonheart. Some players do not quit just for one single reason. There are alot of factors that put together finally mean too much hazzle. You are pretty new so I know the enthusiasm but after finding flaws, debating, voting and discussing House rules (Rome Invasions, LC turn one gambits, limit on air units, this new AA flaw with air in city placing limit, ...), lack of players and weak interest in tournaments, leagues and CUPS you have a lot of factors. All these factors contributes to a falling interest, so I wont blame one person or one event for it. Zappsweden >>>>>>>>> SC Ghost >>>>>>>>>>>> OUT [ November 18, 2003, 05:29 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Sir Jersey You asked a simple question, "Why"? Simple Answer: All these comments were made calling/inferring Zapp & myself as "SC-2 Project Blockers". In the technology field, that's like calling a farmer a "Barn Burner". Immer What is the point of the reply? (See answer to Jersey). All I did was repeat what you said & put it in the form of a question. DragonHeart I'm not a quitter. The word is not in my vocabulary. When I was a kid I was pitching baseball (getting shelled) & I wanted to quit. My Mom came into the dugout & said,"I didn't know I raised a quitter". Three years later I was the top relief pitcher in my High School Conference, went on to pitch summer leagues in college too. The Rambo Trilogy was played out as promised. Camp Rambo has a mission statement & has stuck to it. I started out in SC (made my name) with free lancing, touring, & showcasing my game in AAR-Superbouts. Also had PBEM stardom, eventually leagues broke out. Then along came Terif, who went religous on the game, took my crown. I rebounded, took him to the woodshed multiple times during Rambo America Vacation Hours, taking back my Crown. Now the leagues are gone, Terif is gone, Cups are gone...I'll play for charity & for "The Love of the Game" (great movie). Rambo is no quitter. Legends don't quit. Rambo is old school American living Boise, Idaho raised with the Flag, Bible, Baseball, Country Music, & you worked for your bread........a time long gone. Now things have changed: today, your problem is somebody else's fault & can't preach against individual sin. Well, the flag is still flying over Camp Rambo, the KJV-Bible is memorized (before 'they' try to rewrite it), I'm involved in Fantasy Baseball, Country Music always rings out, & I work for every red cent (don't blame a soul & never take a dime from the government). "Aye, that's what you think, I'm still in business" --- Marlon Brando speaking to Karl Maldon in the Western movie classic One Eyed Jacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 General Rambo I'd have liked to have hit against you. I was a righthanded linedrive hitter with a closed stance who crowded the plate and liked to poke hard shots to right center. When I was fourteen a big lanky fireballer a few years older than the rest of us drilled me in the head with a hard fastball. It sent me to the hospital on the backseat of a friend's car; my father, R.I.P. , was working that day. I saw it coming but didn't jump right away because I thought it would break in front of my face; also, part of my game was letting pitches graze me for the free pass. Anyhow, I learned later that when the adult who took me to the emergency room returned to the field the other team all wanted to know how I was. The guy had told his son that it wasn't serious even though helmet had split open! No doubt it took most of the impact, but that beaning sure had everyone scared, including me; seeing two dancing images of everything isn't natural! So the other team sent someone over to our thirdbaseman to find out what his father had just said to him. They were winning at the time. My little buddy did some quick thinking and told their guy I was in a coma and might already be dead! When they took the field again their fastballing superstar was throwing creampuffs and he couldn't find the plate. They told me the poor kid was crying on the mound and he didn't get through the inning; he gave up a few runs and the next guy also gave up a few and we wound up taking the game. I recovered fairly quickly. Back then we wore helmets that didn't have earflaps, they were much more comfortable but left a lot of areas unprotected. A few days later I was playing again, even though I was supposed to be taking it easy, and crowding the plate even more than before. It goes back to what you said about quitting, if you don't get back right away after something like that, if you don't dig in and eyeball the pitcher and forget about the one that might have killed you, you'll be afraid of the next one the rest of your life. Like yourself I went on to play a lot of baseball and they're some of my best memories. Occasionally I'd really get a hold of one and everybody, I mean even people watching the game, used to remind me in the next at bat to try and hit a single -- all it takes is one good homer to ruin a kid's swing! Anyway, whatever negative connotation was being applied to either you or Zappsweden or both of you does not include myself -- as I'm sure you know and I hope Zapp does as well. I don't think either of you are trying to impede SC2 and I'd love to see that glitch corrected myself. All I'm saying is Hubert has always shown he has good reasons for doing things and I'm confident this is no exception. [ November 18, 2003, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonheart Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Hm obviously i came to the wrong time to the wrong place ...the glorious time of SC-battles is over....i have to realize this ...we all have to realize this. Unfortunately i spent to much time in playing CMBB and HOI before this gave me a delay of 10 mth to enter the SC-Community..so i missed better times. I´m not that enthusiastic anymore..zapp..the reasons you stated are true... Maybe i will do a couple of games in the pbem league or in the Panzerliga....but this will be restriced as PBEM sucks. I will further lurk arround and post in the forum as i m really interested if this community is breaking. Jersey said no... i say yes...let´s ee. Game over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt88 Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Dragon, Come on man, this is beginning to sound like a funeral. There are still people playing the game !! SC-PBEM-league is flourishing big time. Me and Curry are even discussing to let people play TCP/IP in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonheart Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 For this issue you have to talk with Dragonheart II not me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Jersey --- Yes, I have been plugged in the head several times playing ball. I charged the mound once too. I do pitch inside I threw my arm out in college, playing HomeRun Derby in my fraternity. My best pitch (I'm a right hander), was a natural screwball. I cut the ball & it moved it on the right-handers, jamming them. Then I had an average high-school curve. It took a major toll on my arm, dumb move. Okay folks: I'm going back to my beginnings. There is nothing but opportunity since the leagues are gone! Camp Rambo is open for AAR-Superbouts Camp Rambo is considering "Turkey Shootout II" Camp Rambo is ready for all players If you want to play a "showcased-superbout" against the Legend, POST HERE & NOW. "I'm not judging or playing God, I'm just setting up the meeting between the two." --- Sec. of Defense Rumsfield on the desired killing of Saddam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curry Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Curry posts Zapp, thanks for sharing this in the open and not keeping it to yourself. Now that it is in the open isn't it equal for all to use? Could it at all help the allies? Rambo responds Curry --- Dude, maybe nobody should have reported all the other bugs found? Maybe there NEVER should have been any patches? Who are you to decide. Zapp & I played a game, reported the facts, & suddenly you're a FIRMWARE RELEASE MANAGER? Are you a FIRMWARE RELEASE MANAGER? Please let me know. Rambo? What is the problem DUDE? [ November 18, 2003, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: Curry ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Lets get back to the game. If you want to do battle w/ Rambo, lets take it to the battlefield of SC, enough talk. There is a time to smack, but now is not the time. Who's first? Rambo >>> Off to work, I shall return tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade Trapp Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Terppana Originally posted by terppana: Zapp you said: ******************** Hubert. I am very dissapointed since I though bringing bugs to the table would mean they got fixed. ******************** Im with JJ, tone it down man. Make a rule that you wont use that bug and get on with it. Hubert said he is one man shop and therefore he doesnt have time do do everything. I just CANT wait till SC2 GO HUBERT! - Terppana This is between the veteran members of the forum, don't get involved if you know nothing about the situation. Comrade Trapp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 terppana I'm honored that you agree with me in at least 25% of your posts! I hope you share your opinions in the other game threads and start some yourself, even though you've been around BF over a year your's is definitely a fresh voice! And that's what this place really needs at the moment. As for this Thread, I think Comrade is offering good, if slightly terse, advice. The exchanges going back and forth here are between guys who really know each other and, as you've already seen, this is the sort of Thread that generates hard feelings by the bushelfull. I'm trying not to post in this one myself but it's more or less pulling me in like a blackhole! :eek: Who knows, maybe it's fun being stretched like spagehtti and compressed forever into some sort of gravitational hell. On the other hand, it might not be? :confused: If you want to expand your horizons click onto the link on my footer and visit the Strategic Command HQ site, it's similar to this one but different! [ November 18, 2003, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurt88 Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Who knows, maybe it's fun being stretched like spagehtti and compressed forever into some sort of gravitational hell. Mmm, not handy if you wanna pi. [ November 18, 2003, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: kurt88 ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade Trapp Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Jersey Don't you have some work you need to be doing? It's 10:30am, GET TO WORK! Did you just wonder off and do what you wanted when you were supposed to be defending our nation from the threat of a Soviet nuclear attack? Thank god there was no internet back then, we would be under nuclear attack and you would be happily posting away while your supposed to be on duty. Maybe you could have got away with that kind of lazyness in the USAF, but your in the civilian world, I doubt your employer would approve of what your doing on the clock. On a serious note, your a lot more diplomatic then me. We got the "god cop, bad cop" thing going. If someone steps out of line (or at least in my eyes ), I tare them apart without remorse, and you come in saying what I said using much "kinder" words. Now thats teamwork. Comrade Trapp [ November 18, 2003, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: Comrade Trapp ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonheart Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 jersey, comrade.... This reminds me rather to the muppet show not to the good cop, bad cop story.... you know the two old guys on the balcony?? ROFL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 "Jersey --- Yes, I have been plugged in the head several times playing ball. I charged the mound once too. I do pitch inside I threw my arm out in college, playing HomeRun Derby in my fraternity. My best pitch (I'm a right hander), was a natural screwball. I cut the ball & it moved it on the right-handers, jamming them. Then I had an average high-school curve. It took a major toll on my arm, dumb move." Yes, any pitcher worth his weight has to pitch inside and needs to keep the hitter away from the plate. What a lot of players don't understand about crowding the plate is your back foot is behind you and planted and you think with your left foot. I'd go up on the toes of me left foot as the pitcher wound up and if the ball was coming inside I'd start opening up, away from the plate starting with the left foot, otherwise, as you know, you end up being handcuffed by the pitch. That's the disadvantage, you've got to be extra quick. The advantage is if the pitch is either over the plate or even on the outside corner it's easily reached with the barrel of the bat. To have been beaned as many times as you did you must have also crowded the plate. Did a little pitching myself as I got older. Too short (5"7") to throw a really good fastball, I had to find pitches that moved. I never learned how to throw a knuckler and my hand is too small for a drop pitch or forkball or split-fingered fastball, which are probably all the same pitch. So I relied on a slider and a big overhand curve. They were fine for righthanded hitters but I needed something for lefties and also learned how to throw a screwball. When you said your's came naturally it made me smile because I first developed mine while playing thirdbase. Firstbasemen used to complain that my throws tended to break as they reached them. At first I thought they were nuts but I realized I had a tendancy to twist my wrist a little as I released the ball. So I started thinking about putting it to some use and developed what I called a reverse slider with the idea of using it against lefthanded hitters. My coach asked me what the hell I was talking about and I showed him. I'd bring my arm down and snap my wrist the opposite way as when I threw a slider. He put on a catcher's glove and I threw a bunch of them and he told me it was a righthanded screwball; up till then I always thought of lefties as throwing them but was pleased to find out what I was tossing. By then I was in the Air Force and stationed in San Antonio, which was like baseball heaven! We used to have pick-up games going outside the base three or four times a week, full nine inning deals. I couldn't pitch more than three or four effective innings so I'd come in around the sixth or seventh and usually after some giant gorilla so my junk would be more confusing after his fastballs. It worked well, though a lot of things were hit back up the middle and luckily I was quick with a glove. A line drive came back toward my nose one time and I remember catching it and feeling the glove go thump against my chin. The whole infield came to the mound and thought it was a riot and they all said they thought it would take my head off! If I'd have had time to think I'm sure I'd have agreed with them; fortunately I didn't, I only had time for instinct, but I'll never forget how that instant seem like an hour, the ball getting bigger and bigger as it came forward and was finally hidden by the glove and then the glove moving toward me from the impact! A moment like that is worth a full year of ordinary living. So, like yourself I ended my playing days with a dangling arm. I was pitching on a soggy mound in a heavy drizzle. The game was almost over and everyone wanted to finish it but we really should have quit, it was playing in a steambath. I was throwing one of those screwballs, by then I had conficence in it against both righties and lefties. My left foot came down and slid with a sudden jerk, sort of sliding out to the left and at first that's where my attention was going. Meanwhile I was finishing the pitch, snapping my wrist backwards and without thinking I did something wrong with the rest of my arm. The pitch went off five feet from the plate, I dropped like a sack with my legs in almost a perfect split and my arm wrenched from the shoulder. About half the ligaments were snapped. I never pitched again and have never been able to throw a baseball properly since that time. It was never operated on. The technique probably didn't exist thirty years ago and in any event, as it didn't effect anything else, there was no point in fixing it, so it's remained that way. For years my right shoulder would make a snapping sound whenever I made a throwing motion, it doesn't anymore, but on certain days, like today, when it's damp and chilly here and I've got a bug it starts hurting again. How ironic that you were primarily a pitcher and wrecked your arm hitting and I was mainly there for my hitting, and wrecked my arm pitching. Life is full of surprises. Too bad we weren't teammates, we'd have had a lot of good games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Taking them in the order they were posted ... Kurt, No, my friend, we are not about to speculate about how it feels to be crushed beyond the infinitessimal! That nightmare I'm sparing myself Comrade I'm dying today, got some sort of a virus, discussed the matter with my boss -- me -- and it was decided I should just rest and drink plenty of fluids only not the kind I usually guzzle, orange juice and tomatoe juice but without vodka. Yes, I know, it sounds unnatural but that's the way I was told to take them. Being a cheap bastard, my boss isn't paying me for a sick day. As a matter of fact, I'm considering firing myself. I should. When your income drops 66% in two years being fired loses some of it's menace! I don't know why you regard yourself as the bad cop, I mean, just because you keep insinuating I should make a guest appearance before a firing squad! Actually, I've seen you be extremely diplomatic so I've got no doubt you'll return to form and then I can be the bad cop. As for my Air Force days, it was bizarre, I was the world's worst trooper by any standards but I kept getting glowing evaluations. The guys getting the lousy ones probably deserved medals! About two weeks after I got home I had a horrible nightmare -- that I was back at Loring A. F. B., freezing my ass off under a B-52 on a frigid December night! Dragon I love the Muppet Show and wish it was still on the air. Back in the seventies I used to have a very yound niece and nephew lined up behind me and when the show came on we used to do the march and sing the song ... and my sister, The Merry Widow, would sit on a soft chair shaking her head and saying I was a bad influence on her three and four year old, that they'd never grow up with me around! The two old guys were fantastic, often better than Miss Piggy herself. Thanks for bringing it up, you rekindled some treasured memories. [ November 18, 2003, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert Cater Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Zappsweden Originally posted by zappsweden: I am very dissapointed since I though bringing bugs to the table would mean they got fixed.I think in most circumstances and up until v1.07 came out this was definitly the case, but as happens with all software cycles there has to come a point where call it 'for economic survivability', time and efforts must move on to newer projects. At this point I have to balance the severity of the bug versus the newer projects versus whether or not there exist in game workarounds to resolve the issue. Now if I felt and of course if it also existed in the majority opinion that we had a 'show stopper' then I think you know that I would not let that be the case... remember v1.06 was at one time the last patch for SC For brevity I won't post the list of changes made since SC was first released, but feel free to take another look and I thihk we can all agree that from v1.0 - 1.07 there was a lot of work/changes/tweaks/fixes thrown in to not only improve stability but also game play... that whether we like it or not may not always be apparent during initial beta testing. Sometimes it really does take thousands of players to come up with a variety of different strategies before glaring bugs or in game weaknesses show their ugly face. Personally I think the list of beta testers did a fantastic job and keep in mind a voluntary job spending countless hours on a game where their only reward truly was to help make the game better not only for themselves but for everyone else out there. Getting back to the bug in question it is rather unfortunate it was not discovered earlier as it would have been included (no problem) in one of the many patches for SC, but at this point I have to balance the severity versus the several other factors previously discussed. While it could lead to some tricky game play, this one like some of the balance issues can in theory be resolved via house rules or campaign tweaks etc. As mentioned before, if it is at this point an issue that can be dealt with in an alternative manner, than for me I strongly feel my time would be better spent on items like SC2. I understand that not all will agree with this statement but please keep in mind that I am only making it AFTER 7 patches have been released for SC BUT as I mentioned in my original response to this thread, I'll still think about it but definitly no promises. Hope this helps, Hubert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terppana Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 ************************* This is between the veteran members of the forum, don't get involved if you know nothing about the situation. Comrade Trapp [/QB] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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