Was confused, but now is just SC2 thoughts

[Les the Sarge 9-1b]

Ok the other thread was locked, I'm not surprised or annoyed though (almost asked for it myself).

I won't be concerned ie angry, if this one gets locked as well. But I hope it is not seen as a negative post, it is not meant to be.

I have been trying to re evaluate some of my activities.

Some I have found to be of questionable worth, to me, personally.

That is not an indictment of this or any other forum, or the game(s) contained in them, it's merely me saying I have not been putting a lot of thought into what I have been doing lately.

I am indeed a board gamer. I am probably a minority in my preference for board games over computer games.

That is just me.

Some people have actually gone out of their way to imply I have feelings of superiority because I like board games more. I just like board games more. I also like brunnettes instead of blondes eh.

I have pondered the worth of SC, commented on the worth of SC, and watched and observed comments on the worth of SC.

I have not always been right. But I feel I have on occasion made valid comments. The fact that SC is not a board game will always be a factor, but it is not the end of the world.

I have the game now of course.

I am not constrained by the limits of the demo (although as demos go, it was perhaps the first demo of a game I have ever had any real use for).

I play it occasionally, I never play any computer game excessively though.

I have not always been a big fan of the forum here in the past, but then after some consideration, I have found some of my other forums have not been wholely satisfying recently as well.

I will say, that of all the forums I have wandered, since I decided to check out anything other than the one I call home base, this one has put the best effort out, to ask me to stay.

Guys if you read any part of this message, read this part, I am saying thanks for the guys that thought to ask me to stay.

I am not saying those guys are are better than the rest, just because they asked one grumpy old board gamer to stay either.

But they have made the effort, and made me think it is worth hanging around.

The forum here has perhaps the most extreme wild cards I have encountered on a routine basis, every family has odd balls.

Ok enough said. Please don't fret over making this thread more than it needs to be. I just wanted to make as clear as possible, I have no personal grudge against the forum the game or anything else.

[ January 09, 2003, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: Les the Sarge 9-1b ]

[Canuck]

Ooops. I clicked on this thread with the belief that you were actually going to talk about something that had to do with SC the game. My bad.

[J P Wagner]

If everybody had their choice, would they like to see:

A. SC2 be a European Expansion of SC?

B. SC2 be a Pacific Theater Operation?

C. SC2 be a global Strategic game?

For me, I wouldn't mind seeing SC2 stay in Europe, but with a much larger map and of course many of the features discussed in these forums.

[ January 09, 2003, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: J P Wagner ]

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by Les the Sarge:

.. it's merely me saying I have not been putting a lot of thought into what I have been doing lately.

LOL! Hey Sarge, c'mon down, you instantly qualify as a US Congress-person!

[Les the Sarge 9-1b]

No there is no future for me in politics, I haven't mastered lying yet.

I would like to play SC2 in the Pacific, but I have lost track of how many games that were great in Europe, but when the shift to the Pacific was made, the two games were hard to match up (according to a lot of noise from the fans at least).

I am unsure if SC would be any different.

I think to do SC2, and if the Pacific is to be included, it would be best to model the game as a global simulation right from the start. Otherwise SC risks the same debacle that happened with Rising Sun.

Rising Sun had some nice design innovations, but they are likely still having trouble mating the two together (I got bored of the whole process a year or so back while following GW2K).

If SC2 is a radical shift in designs, then it would be the right time to alter any characteristics to allow for the very different environment that the Pacific will require.

The first most obvious detail will be how invasions are handled. Carriers will be more a dominate design element, and the naval game will have to be expanded upon (that is just to obvious but I said it anyways).

HQs will have to function differently, and supply will have to alter. That and the corps as the smallest unit just won't work. Otherwise, marine assaults will just not be possible.

[Les the Sarge 9-1b]

Hmmm I must say, I like how changing a thread name can really help things stay on a useful track hehe.

[pzgndr]

but when the shift to the Pacific was made, the two games were hard to match up

Good point. Linking two games together rarely works well. And with 50-mile hexes, a world-wide map would be HUGE and terribly difficult to manage. :eek:

At this point, SC2 would do well to stay focused on Europe and the North Atlantic and build on what SC has accomplished. However, the game could possibly include a separate Pacific Theater map and PTO scenarios using the same game engine, perhaps as a planned patch. That would give us a chance to work out game mechanics issues for the Pacific and then think about a possible world-wide game. :cool:

[Hueristic]

Originally posted by J P Wagner:

If everybody had their choice, would they like to see:

A. SC2 be a European Expansion of SC?

B. SC2 be a Pacific Theater Operation?

C. SC2 be a global Strategic game?

For me, I wouldn't mind seeing SC2 stay in Europe, but with a much larger map and of course many of the features discussed in these forums.

"C"

[arby]

Originally posted by J P Wagner:

If everybody had their choice, would they like to see:

A. SC2 be a European Expansion of SC?

B. SC2 be a Pacific Theater Operation?

C. SC2 be a global Strategic game?

For me, I wouldn't mind seeing SC2 stay in Europe, but with a much larger map and of course many of the features discussed in these forums.

I'd limit it to the European Theatre. I'm not sure that any war game has ever come up with a workable strategic combat engine for the Pacific Theatre. (HOI's attempt at that is a complete disaster.) Coming up with something that accurately models carrier and surface combat on a strategic level is exceedingly difficult. I'd prefer to get the European theatre right.

[J P Wagner]

Arby, Uncommon Valor from Matrix is a good start on how a turn based strategic game can be made in the Pacific...one design decision was to make land unit counters small, so you actually can do some maneuvering around Guadalcanal and New Guinea...be forward however, the game is very detailed with a high learning curve..um....well, for me at least anyway..

[ January 09, 2003, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: J P Wagner ]

[Les the Sarge 9-1b]

Bill my comment about the Pacific being a troublesome add on might go on to be a troublesome add on though if it is not done under a unified game though.

We all have heard of the numerous tweaks we would like, and while doing all those tweaks, what better time to add the needed concessions to a Pacific setting.

I am not sure about the game being able to handle the Pacific, but I would find it better to try with the whole game at once, than hope for it to manage as an outsde option.

Off topic, hmm I went out for a couple of hours for some fresh air, and the forums went apparently nuts???? Havent seen that many locks on page one ever before????

As it has been done for me, I would like to extend the same for another.

Kuni I hope you hang around.

I like a social setting myself in a forum.

This forum has it's looney moments, but it went out of its way to make sure I felt welcome.

To date, because of encountering cool individuals on forums, I have been sent free of expense to me the cds for Mega Campaign Desert Fox and Mega Campaign WatchTower both for Steel Panthers.

I have an indivdual that has a spare Close Combat 2 that he is sending me.

No these are not pirate copies either (just so we are clear on that), its the genuine article.

These individuals have possibly tired of them and are merely wishing to let me have them, but still it has been a very nice gesture.

My copy of SC was a gift as well eh.

I would never want a forum to be just a cold factual collection of impersonal threads.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1b:

This forum has it's looney moments.

No kiddin

[JerseyJohn]

Les,

Though I probably never came out and said I thought you should stay I always felt it was understood without my actually saying it.

As this may not be the case, I will state here that you ought to remain with us. Aside from which we are presently tied with an equal number of farewell forums. Having each said our good riddance so often it would be anti-climactic for either of us to actually desert.

Sarge, It would be wrong to abandon your squad on the basis of non-combat boredom.

So it's official, I'm asking you to stay and am also thanking you for pulling for Jimmy "Trigger Finger" Boggs and indirectly fo myself when everyone thought we were the same no-goodnik.

The world and forum both need Grumpy Old Noncoms.

[ January 09, 2003, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Friedrich_der_2]

A. SC2 be a European Expansion of SC?

B. SC2 be a Pacific Theater Operation?

C. SC2 be a global Strategic game?

I vote for c. But of course this is not easy to realize. I like SC very much even because it is not a 100% historic simulation. A worldwide playground would be a fantastic strategic challenge. Just imagine as the Germans you could invest heavy in you fleet and invade South-America. Or Japan do not declares war on the USA but supports the German efforts to gain naval superiority.

Sven

[SeaMonkey]

I think we all can agree that SC is a success. I also believe that ultimately we all wish to subject the earth to our personal domination (if only they would do it my way everything would be allright, syndrome). This is of course fantasy, which is kinda the basis of our gamey attraction. But to do a global SC right is a huge undertaking. Let's take it in baby steps, next is the Pacific. UV and the upcoming WitP from GG will help define a manageable engine in the concept of SC simplicity. All of the people on this forum have such great ideas and dedication and with HC at the helm.... hmmm I smell success. And for my man JJ, Sarge, and Mr. Boggs, Welcome back, Welcome back, Welcome back

[JerseyJohn]

SeaMonkey

Thanks as always for the good word.

Agreed 100% on the baby-step approach.

While rumaging through the technical help site a came across a programming question from August that was addressed to Hubert about the construction of this game. Even though I don't know much about programming I was able to get an idea of why the game is set up the way it is and it seems some of it's stregnths are also it's limitations.

Given that fact, I agree with you that the best progression would be SC 2 to finalize this fine adventure; SC 2 Pacific Theater, followed by whatever the next good direction would be. Hopefully the Pacific Theater version would have a tie in to SC 2 Europe and that would be close to having a global game.

[SeaMonkey]

I'm guessing here but the difficulties of the Pacific theater seem to be the scale of the islands (land mass to H2O) and of course an accurate simulation of carrier warfare. Resolving these issues and others while keeping the integration of Europe/Asia conflict on the back burner provides some direction. If we can solve the integration problem while building the Pac. engine then Global SC becomes nothing but a tweak with the many great ideas that will evolve from this forum's focus on Pac.SC.

[JerseyJohn]

I'm also figuring the difference in scale is the main stumbling block. If you include the Pacific, how much of mainland Asia and the Indian Ocean can be included. Then there's Australia to the south; Japan did have expeditions pointed it's way (New Guinea and the Coral Sea thrust in early '42) so it has to be included. In 1944 Japan attempted a move on India, so including everthing from Siberia to the Baering Sts in the North, etc -- what it amounts to is half of the Pacific Rim, half of mainland Asia, and everything running from Japan south through The Phillipines, The East Indies and Australia .

If scrolling isn't used the map would probably be only a few hexes per nation!

[J Wagner]

You can download the World in Flames map from here:

http://www.marinacci.com/Chris/

For those of you who are interested enough, give it a view and comment on whether or not you would like to see a map of this scale used for SC. Whether just Europe, Pacific, or Global, you would have an idea of scale based on this version. For example,there are 67 hexes from New York to Brest whereby SC is 14. Now there is your Battle in the Atlantic! And be honest, if you check out North Africa, wouldn't you like to sink your teeth into that campaign? I don't know how WIF will eventually play out, but I would certainly enjoy a turn based game on this scale. Hubert?..

[ January 09, 2003, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: J Wagner ]

[GroupNorth]

Making SC2 'global' would be a noble yet very difficult task. I believe some quality might be sacrificed by being over-ambitious.

By the way, this is an absurd thread. I lika alot!

[JerseyJohn]

J Wagner

Thanks for the lead, downloaded full version and will post my answer after I've looked at it.

Dirty trick comparing distances based on the Twilight Zone Atlantic area used by the SC game map.

[ January 09, 2003, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Logan Hartke]

It currently wouldn't work to do an SC of the Pacific due to the size of the ocean and the small size of the islands. Just like Malta and Gibraltar, Corrigidor and Wake would never fall due to their inability to be invaded. With only one hex and the current rules of no more than one unit per hex, including amphibious assualts, the Japanese would never be able to attack Wake, Midway, and others. Also, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, and others could never be invaded. Also, atomic weaponry would have to be included and everybody would rush to just get that technology. I would LOVE for the Pacific to be included, but game dynamics would have to be seriously overhauled to allow, but I believe that it could be done and that it would work VERY well if the effort was put into it.

Logan Hartke

[J Wagner]

Group North, you make a valid point and I would worry about complexity. I'm not a programmer so, being unqualified, bear with me. The basic gamplay of SC is pleasantly streamlined and I would hope that this philosophy could be converted into a game of this scale... I know one concern that has been mentioned in other posts, is that the AI would take forever to make its' move in a game of this magnitude. I don't know if this is true or not. But consider that your turn would take awhile to finish as would your opponent if you were playing against a friend. I think of all the times in my board gaming days when I could have roasted a turkey and carved it up before my buddy finished his move, and he could have completely read War and Peace while I pondered mine!....so if the AI may take a while to conclude a turn, I would hope that would be considered as a necessary given, or evil, if you are so swayed against the thought of it....I would think the AI could perform competently in a turn based game of this scale, because it would cycle through it's moves as opposed to simultaneously making all of it's moves in real time, such as in HOI. I could be dead wrong in this so I'll throw that out there for anyone to agree or disagree with.

[ January 09, 2003, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: J Wagner ]

[JerseyJohn]

J Wagner

Gave World in Flames a quick look. Appears to be pretty much what was discussed in the North Atlantic forum, scrolling and a smaller map box to navigate through.

Looks like a much different game concept but one I'd like in additon to SC (with upgrades reflecting the weather and better Atlantic theater, etc.). After reading that programing forum between Hubert and one of the posters, I don't think SC in it's present format could be adapted to that sort of global scale, but I don't know this for sure. The key would be expanding it without entering micromanagment hell -- which World in Flames appears prone to.

I would like a much larger map, one that covers the Atlantic to the eastern U. S. coast and that would also make an Axis cross ocean invasion impossible as per actual history. I'd also like it extend from the arctic to Equatorial Africa and east to it's present area in the Urals. The only way to do this would by through scrolling and if that could be adapted it would be great.

The World in Flames map incorporates Greenland and Iceland and the Canaries, Cape Verde Islands, etc., all places that were discussed in the North Atlantic forum and incorporating them in SC 2 would make the Battle for the Atlantic much more realistic and better.

Logan

Agreed fully on the problems presented in the Pacific. Considering Asia and the Indian Ocean and Australia and the Pacific Rim it all adds up to a weird combination of Macro and Micro geographic problems!

[Les the Sarge 9-1b]

The only downside of doing global, is that you can't just say, "oh no one would ever need that part of the map".

That and well you might have noticed the planet is round heheh (currently in a game of SC the world is square shaped and kinda flat looking hehe).

I bring up a valid worry though.

I recall watching the game Squad Leader get improved with Cross of Iron. Suddenly armour was awesome.

Then with Crescendo of Doom infantry was now awesome. And you had British finally.

They finished off with GI Anvil of Victory and an attempt to ratify all the neat developments. But the wheel wobbled a lot.

So they remade the whole game as ASL.

But that is just it, they had to remake the whole game. It is a great game, but you ain't seen nothing till you look at the expense of buying all of ASL hehe.

Anyway. It will be a big task to do global right straight off, but it might also be worth it. Taking to many baby steps, might only force everyone to eventually have to start all over with a really big effort to get it to all fit together as a unified whole.

If that isn't a problem, then I guess it isn't much to worry about either.