America in trouble?

[Wolfpack]

I just tried out something after getting irritated by the Americans joining when I tried Sea Lion in my last game. So I conquer France and spend my loot on 2 air fleets and 3 tanks. I walked over the french after they pulled out of the northern line and gave me a clear shot to Paris, so I didn't spend a whole lot of money. I sent a small force (2 Italian armies, a German HQ, 2 corps, and 2 German armored units) to the Southeast to attack Yugoslavia and Greece, I massed 2 armored units, a HQ, and 2 armies on the west coast of France. As soon as I made sure everyone was up to full strength, I embarked them and made the trip to America using a southern loop to avoid the RN who was out hunting my sub. I got to the US coast, declared war, and unloaded all my units which immediately gained me quite a bit of extra MPPs. The invasion of the US went thusly:

Turn 1 - Axis

I unloaded one army on the mine north of Boston (1,17), an armored unit on the hex north of NY(2,18), another armor unit in the hex south of NY(2,20), my HQ in the hext to the SW of that(1,20), and my final army just south of Portsmouth(1,22). The northermost army moves into the mine at (0,18) and attacks Boston. The armored unit above Boston also attacks Boston and kills the unit there. I immediately operationally move two air fleets to the hexes I've captured in the north (1,17 and 0,17). The armored unit south of NY attacks the plane in Philadelphia and nearly knocks it out (Down to 2). The HQ does nothing and the southern army moves into the oil well to the NW (0,22). Losses are light, the first army that attacked Boston lost 3 points and the armored unit that killed the Boston garrison lost 1. Unfortunately I was unable to move into Boston this turn, but I am still up 30 MPPs.

Turn 1 - US

The unit in NY attacks the armored unit to the NW and does 2 damage while also sustaining 2. One US battleship turns tail and runs away to God knows where, while the second (Massachusets) moves north and bombards my air fleet causing 2 damage. The army in Washington and the army in Portsmouth attack my HQ unit and drop it to 3. There are no reinforcements because the US enters the war with 0 MPPs.

Turn 2 - Axis

My northern Army moves into the oil well to the south (0,19) and finishes off the air fleet in Portsmouth. After two air attacks on NY which bring his strength down to 4, the armored unit above NY moves into Boston and attacks NY dropping his army to 2, and the armored unit to the south of NY moves into Philadelphia and also attacks NY destroying the army there. Once again, I am unable to move in and take it, but he cannot reinforce it so I'm happy. I now bring two more air fleets over to help deal with the BB and Washington. Once again, my HQ remains in place as I receive replacements bringing it up to a strength of 8. The southern army moves up and I foolishly attack Washington which does 2 damage, but I am dropped to 4 in return.

Turn 2 - US

The army in Washington gets replacements while the army in Portsmouth comes out to try and knock out my southern army. They do no damage and take 2 themselves. The US BB once again bombards my air fleet bringing it down to 5. Because I control the land around the remaining US cities, they can build no units.

Turn 3 - Axis

Instead of wasting my air power on the ship, I turn the entire force on Washington and get it down to 1. This allows me to move an armored unit up to finish him off and my southern army is able to move in unopposed. US surrender.

Now, as much fun as it would be to spring a surprise on a human like that, it's just not very realistic or enjoyable for them, although I'm sure a human would do a better job, they're hamstrung by the lack of space and quick loss of a lot of MPP sites. I know the map isn't going to receive any further modifications, but this strategy just should not work with a relatively weak force like this. Four possible solutions I can see would be:

1. Add another unit to defend the mines in the north, perhaps just a corps.

2. Prevent operational movement of air assets into a newly captured hex. This was really the deciding factor in my little blitz, being able to shuttle in fighters to places I captured that round let me mass a lot of air power immediately. Even a one turn delay in being able to do this could have had serious consequences on my attack.

3. Give the US their full allotment of MPPs on the turn that the Axis declares war on them. This would have at least let him reinforce his armies and again, set my invasion back a lot.

4. Give the Allies intelligence on German units within a certain range of the US shores. I would find this to be the most historical, but least desirable. Historical since the USN was passing exactly that kind of information to the UK while still neutral, but not as good because we already know how hard it is to hide subs, this would only make it more difficult.

I don't know if any of these are possible within the game parameters, but something should really be done because as it is, with the small size of the US landmass, once the Germans get a force across undetected close to the US shores, it's just about over unless the Germans just have bad luck.

[BloodyBucket]

Well thought out and documented post.

Seems that the simplest solution would be to increase the size of the US army that immediately deploys with a declaration of war. Of course, there may be balance issues if the US has too many forces available in a more "normal" situation.

[Marc Hameleers]

Easiest and probably most realistic solution to this....

Only allow a DOW on the states if Britian is conquered.

No way Germany could have done an invasion of the US, and certianly not with Britain still around.

Marc

[Mr. Johnson--]

Maybe make the atlantic wider, or give america a couple cruisers locked in place until a declaration of war.

[Ancient One]

I think the US needs a larger navy to begin with. 2 battleships to represent what was the world's second largest navy? :eek: Give them at least 2 cruisers and 2 carriers in addition to the battleships.

[Marc Hameleers]

Well, this as an EUROPEAN theatre game. The US navy may be larger then what is represented in this game, but a lot of it is located elsewhere, waiting to be bombed by japan

Marc

[Ancient One]

So what, the US fleet in the Atlantic was very large, certainly larger than the Italian fleet.

[Jorgen_Cab]

I do agree that attacking the US is far too easy.

Though, you could solve this problem by several means.

First they should have quite a large MPP pool from the start if Germany declares war against them, as already suggested.

They should get two additional Cruisers but no Carriers, since I don't think that they had any in the Atlantic during 39-41.

You could give them national waters by one hex of the coast. You may not enter them before you declare war. This would stall the invasion for one turn and their fleet would massacre your transports heavily.

You could also add one more air fleet and an HQ. This would make things pretty hard for the German player to attack early in the game.

[ May 24, 2002, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: Jorgen_Cab ]

[Hubert Cater]

The invasion of the US went thusly:

Very interesting strategy, I admit I've never actually tried this one but I'm glad you've been able to point it out. Expect some adjustments for the final release

Hubert

[John DiFool]

They should get two additional Cruisers but no Carriers, since I don't think that they had any in the Atlantic during 39-41.

Yeah they did-both the Hornet and Wasp (and Yorktown I believe) were stationed in the Atlantic when Pearl Harbor occurred. Lex, Sara, and the Enterprise were in the Pacific.

John DiFool

[Wolfpack]

Originally posted by Hubert Cater:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The invasion of the US went thusly:

Very interesting strategy, I admit I've never actually tried this one but I'm glad you've been able to point it out. Expect some adjustments for the final release

Hubert</font>

[Yorick]

Nice going wolfpack.

It'd be amusing to give the Americans a better fleet until Dec. 7 '41 in case they're drawn into the war early.

It's occured to me that the rules regarding seaborn invasion can be circumvented against countries that aren't at war with you yet. That is, you can park off shore for a turn and then declare and invade the next. The whole point of waiting a turn is to permit the defenders foreknowledge of the invasion. Perhaps the "1 turn" clock should be started only once you've declared war.

The other consequence would be a 1 turn slowdown in the invasion of America, Sweden and Greece. At least, you'd have to declare before you got there which might give the allied player time to reposition. Not sure if this would be good or bad.

Yorick

[Cortes]

I believe the easiest solution would be like with Civilization 2- once you declare war, all your units fly back to the Fatherland. But, this would eliminate surprise attacks.. so a one turn delay is the smoothest. Agreed.