Kuniworth Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 Hearts of Iron failed miserably. PLease make a game of the whole world war 2. With realistic diplomacy, more complex research and more realistic production than in SC. And please lower the scale a bit so corps with divisions in it is the scale we use. Please make my dreams come true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yohan Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 what you need is World in Flames for the Computer, if it ever #$%#$ ships :mad: [ December 02, 2002, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: Yohan ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuniworth Posted December 2, 2002 Author Share Posted December 2, 2002 Well that one got no AI at all. Why play it at all by the cpu? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Wagner Posted December 3, 2002 Share Posted December 3, 2002 I've said this before...put Hubert's SC components onto the World in Flames map, and many of us will be in heaven! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuniworth Posted December 3, 2002 Author Share Posted December 3, 2002 Originally posted by Yohan: what you need is World in Flames for the Computer, if it ever #$%#$ ships :mad: World in flames will be totally unplayable with its dar to complex rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 Originally posted by Kuniworth: Hearts of Iron failed miserably. PLease make a game of the whole world war 2. With realistic diplomacy, more complex research and more realistic production than in SC. And please lower the scale a bit so corps with divisions in it is the scale we use. Please make my dreams come true.Thats abit Harsh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archibald Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 Originally posted by Kuniworth: Hearts of Iron failed miserably. PLease make a game of the whole world war 2. With realistic diplomacy, more complex research and more realistic production than in SC. And please lower the scale a bit so corps with divisions in it is the scale we use. Please make my dreams come true.And could we have it by Christmas please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzgndr Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 Thats a bit Harsh I agree. While HOI was released with more bugs than any paying customer deserves, the v1.01 patch appears to be very responsive and hopefully v1.02 will be released by Christmas to resolve many of the remaining concerns. It's got potential to live up to its expectations. Be patient. SC has gone through its own growing pains, as all games seem to do these days. SC2 should do very well by building upon what SC1 has established, and it's worthwhile to review what is already right with the game so far: - Competent AI based on fuzzy logic. While not perfect or complete, it works and it does well what it was designed to do. Add more strategy patterns for SC2 and a few tweaks here and there and we should have a fully capable computer opponent. Not many games can claim that. - Random politics and FOW. These features make the game interesting and replayable. Add full spectrum politics and maybe make a few adjustments to things like surprise encounters and ability to toggle air units for escort/interception duties, and we'll have a great game. - The basic game mechanics work fine. They're simple, easy to learn and play, and don't require memorizing 60 pages of detailed instructions. Change the variable turn length to standard turns to normalize production, reconsider the resources and plunder issues to simulate a more accurate economy, reconsider the unit action point system to permit move/attack and move/move options, add some seasonal effects, add some additional unit types with unique capabilities, make the map larger, etc., etc. These can all be done by making adjustments to an already functioning game engine that works well. There are many many more ideas for SC2, but the bottom line is that SC is already playable and fun to play - and it's here now. Scenario mods and game options are available to provide whatever challenge you desire, if you're willing to suppress your demand for historical accuracy just a little. Considering we had nothing like SC or HOI six months ago, SC is just about right. Not the perfect WWII-Europe grand strategy game, yet; that's something SC2 can aim for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Dave Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 Big dreams, amazingly small results... too bad, especially for those who expected a playable game right out of the box, but at least Paradox gave it the old college try. Alas, IMO, a truly sophomoric effort. :eek: I would guess that it's mostly because -- we who are WW2-GS fanatics have waited so awfully long for a computerized game, and we tend to be easily seduced, AND easily disappointed. Perhaps a middle ground of harmony & balance, and as Bill has suggested -- patience. I am satisfied that SC has FAR more potential, since I personally do not belive that RTS is possible with such a massive canvas as... economic, and diplomatic, and industrial, and technological, and multi-militarized WW2. I would contend that it almost requires turn-based play, for the simple reason that there is just too much happening all over the place for any one human to keep track -- who wants a desperate click-fest? That kind of game works better when you have smaller battlefields and limited objectives. The next several months should provide us with some understanding of where Hubert and Fury plan to go, and so, we are invited to provide comments and suggestions that might enhance a potential SC2. It will be mighty exciting, all over again! :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J P Wagner Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 I've mentioned the limits of real time in HOI, especially for the AI, on their boards but I am in the minority opinion there. Many HOI players are decendents of EU (like me) and think the real time aspects work. I don't however hold to that belief. Real time works in EU because of the vast historical time frame it covers. Real time in HOI condenses the same amount of activity in a much shorter time period (36-48) and it is just too much for the AI to handle effectively IMO. I enjoy playing it as I await further patches, but if I had to make a "desert island" choice of which game I would have keep me company, it's SC all the way. Sorry if I sound like an SC shill! [ December 04, 2002, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: J P Wagner ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J P Wagner Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 oops...double posted [ December 04, 2002, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: J P Wagner ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Dave Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 As originally posted by JP Wagner: Sorry if I sound like an SC shill! Not in the least do you sound like a shill for SC. IMHO, a shill is like Jeff Vitous over at Wargamer.com who did not WARN anyone that HoI is very nearly... JUNK. That the game as presented is just not playable. It claims to be about WW2, but that is a very vague resemblence indeed. :eek: What are we to suppose? That Jeff V and all the other reviewers (and there were many other shills, just look around) got a copy of the game that contained no bugs and actually had an AI? Then, a true Paradox, inserted all those problems AFTER they reviewed HoI? What possible worth or function are these reviewers supposed to have -- merely to SHILL for a game that is incomplete... I recall NO comments about the bugs and unplayability out of the box. It is NOT for a game designer or publisher to tell consumers that they MUST wait for some future patch that may or may not fix the game, as advertised (... these guys didn't even include some of the items that they stated would be in there). That is nothing but utterly insolent nonsense. Where are your shills? There, amongst the incompetent reviewers, are your shills. :eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John DiFool Posted December 5, 2002 Share Posted December 5, 2002 Originally posted by Bill Macon: - Random politics and FOW. These features make the game interesting and replayable. Add full spectrum politics and maybe make a few adjustments to things like surprise encounters and ability to toggle air units for escort/interception duties, and we'll have a great game. I'd prefer a little MORE randomness, actually. For example, the Yugos shouldn't always throw in their lot with the Allies every single game, even if the exact date is unknown beforehand... John DiFool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzgndr Posted December 5, 2002 Share Posted December 5, 2002 the Yugos shouldn't always throw in their lot with the Allies every single game That's sorta what I mean by full spectrum politics - having things swing either direction. At least some chance. Why shouldn't Yugoslavia enter as an Axis minor, or Spain/Turkey enter as an Allied minor, depending on various modifiers? The whole political model can be enhanced to be somewhat more random, within reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J P Wagner Posted December 5, 2002 Share Posted December 5, 2002 This is where alittle diplomacy can go along way. For example, Germany could negotiate an agreement with Turkey. They would join the Axis or allow the Wehrmacht access through their land if Germany agrees to certain territorial concessions...perhaps a couple of oil fields in the Caucusus.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viper_ss Posted December 6, 2002 Share Posted December 6, 2002 I think between HOI and SC the winner is SC. It is a much better game and has a lot of potential for becoming one of the best grand strategy games. I love both (real-time) RT and (turn-based) TB but for grand strategy TB is the system to use. I love spending a hour on one turn when things get critical and watching the results unfold the next turn. With RT, things unfold too slow and it's too hard to follow everything. Some people suggest pausing the game or placing the speed at a crawl, but if you do so, aren't you playing the game like a TB game? There are things I like about HOI but there are fundamental problems beyond the bugs. Let's pretend all the bugs are gone, the game is still just missing a wargame's feel. Even with grand strategy, there is still a lot of tactical battle planning that can greatly affect a front. Encirclements, defense, etc. SC has the components. HOI is missing them. The provinces don't allow for much maneuverability and I find myself fighting a WWI style war of attrition. There just aren't a lot of tactical options in HOI. Hopefully, SC2 can incorporate the entire world and add a little more depth in research and diplomacy. The game is already excellent but that would take it to another level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rouge Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 One aspect i liked in SC was the graphics. It added a real feel to the game. Lets hope SC2 is the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Wagner Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 viper, HOI misses a wargame feel because it uses the EU2 game engine...EU2 was not a wargame but a game of expansion, colinization, ect. with a combat feature...I look at HOI the same way....when Brazil can overrun all of South America and Mexico can make inroads into the U.S., what else am I to think? I like the game, but I do not believe it's a WWII sim... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viper_ss Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 Right on Wagner. :cool: HOI is a colonization like game. Much like Civilization, Imperialism, etc. Not a wargame in the true sense. SC is a true wargame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoopaTroopa Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 Paratroopers would be nice in SC2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yohan Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- the Yugos shouldn't always throw in their lot with the Allies every single game -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When I play Axis I look on the Yugo coup as a bonus. Free MPPs and ongoing production w/o having to dec and annoy the USA and Russia. I really wanted a Yugo coup delayed until Germany had declared war on Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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