Fall of England

[Wolfpack]

Am I the only one that thinks that taking England shouldn't cause them to surrender? Granted, it's nice to see that fleet disappear, but shouldn't they retreat to Canada and continue the fight? It's not like all of the RN would just give up (especially since most of the times I've taken out England, they're still cruising around at nearly full strength.) I don't think it would unbalance the game to have them fall back, and would actually make it more interesting, since the Allies would have a decent head start toward the liberation, and Germany would be forced to leave a decent sized garrison force to defend.

On a completely different note, and I think someone has already asked for this, would it be possible to add control shading to the jump map in the corner? It's just so bland and pretty much useless as is. It would be nice to be able to look up and see an overall picture of the progress of my armies there.

[rleete]

Good idea. Sort of "Vichy Britain". Maybe a 50-50 chance for each naval unit, whether they disappear, or become the free Brit navy.

I'm not so sure about land/air units, though. If you've actually taken all of the cities, and there are just a couple of units left, wouldn't they be cut off, with nowhere to run? It seems most units would surrender, rather than face annihilation.

But I would like to see some partisans in any neutral country. Maybe depending on the number of garrison units left.

The shaded map idea is a good one, too. No qualifications to that one!

[Wolfpack]

Originally posted by R_Leete:

Good idea. Sort of "Vichy Britain". Maybe a 50-50 chance for each naval unit, whether they disappear, or become the free Brit navy.

I'm not so sure about land/air units, though. If you've actually taken all of the cities, and there are just a couple of units left, wouldn't they be cut off, with nowhere to run? It seems most units would surrender, rather than face annihilation.

But I would like to see some partisans in any neutral country. Maybe depending on the number of garrison units left.

Definitely not any land or air units. No way they would be able to get across the Atlantic IMHO. I'm pretty sure most would fight to the last regardless.

[Wolfpack]

Of course, it wouldn't be "Vichy" England in the sense that it would become neutral, they'd carry on the fight, and lose their North African possessions. But they'd remain in the war.

[husky65]

Originally posted by Wolfpack:

[/qb]

I'm pretty sure most would fight to the last regardless.[/QB]

[Wolfpack]

Well, I didn't mean what I said there really, I just meant that they'd not be available to ship over to Canada, thereby in game terms, fighting to the last.

[NightGaunt]

considering you only have to take one space, i also would also like to see england fight on after they main island falls. British power was huge around the world at that time, canada/new zealand/australia/india/north africa would most certainly fight on. The "country" of england should be represented by canada if main land britain falls.

[husky65]

Originally posted by NightGaunt:

considering you only have to take one space, i also would also like to see england fight on after they main island falls. British power was huge around the world at that time, canada/new zealand/australia/india/north africa would most certainly fight on. The "country" of england should be represented by canada if main land britain falls.

Once the UK falls Australia and New Zealand are probably starting to look towards the growing threat of Japan and considering their own futures, particularly since the perception was that their defence was very much tied up with the empire defence scheme - ie Singapore, and the underpinnings of that had just been kicked out (UK surrender).

India is probably looking towards its own independence.

Nth Africa is not a particularly productive area (particularly for recruiting) for the UK.

Canada would be pretty much going it alone or in concert with the US I suspect.

[pzgndr]

How about letting Britain fall as is for victory conditions (which are what?), but allow the Commonwealth to continue operating through Canada? Gibralter, Malta and North Africa would not necessarily surrender. The Germans would have to defend against an inevitable US/Canadian counter-invasion to liberate Britain. And British partisans would not be unrealistic. You might take Britain, but holding it would be another matter.

[rleete]

Partisans in every conquered country should be there, to some extent. Not necessarily to retake the country, but to "nip at the heels" of the agressor. If Germany has to spend MPPs every turn to reinforce 5 different areas, the cost is eventually going to mount up. Between that, the USSR invading and strategic bombing, the idea is to continually bleed off points.

[husky65]

Originally posted by R_Leete:

Between that, the USSR invading and strategic bombing, the idea is to continually bleed off points.

Strategic bombing from where?

[Lars]

Originally posted by NightGaunt:

considering you only have to take one space, i also would also like to see england fight on after they main island falls. British power was huge around the world at that time, canada/new zealand/australia/india/north africa would most certainly fight on. The "country" of england should be represented by canada if main land britain falls.

Last time I invaded England the Government moved north and they kept on fighting. So you have to take more than just one space.

[Lars]

Originally posted by husky65:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by R_Leete:

Between that, the USSR invading and strategic bombing, the idea is to continually bleed off points.

Strategic bombing from where?</font>

[Mannheim Tanker]

Originally posted by Wolfpack:

Definitely not any land or air units. No way they would be able to get across the Atlantic IMHO.

Why not? Just look at how many Polish pilots and soldiers escaped to return again in '44.

[Wolfpack]

Originally posted by Lars:

Last time I invaded England the Government moved north and they kept on fighting. So you have to take more than just one space.

Yes, you have to take 2 I believe, London and Manchester. Then they surrender and everything vanishes. Which is why I posted this. Really, once London falls, Manchester probably isn't too far behind since the Germans can just keep funnelling troops across the channel into the port so the RN can't do anything about it. I'd much rather see them fight on from the empire, even if it would make it harder for me as the Germans. I really think that at the minimum, Malta should fall with the British Isles. I can see Alexandria perhaps getting supplies from the Eastern empire, and Gibralter has a very small chance of being supplied from Canada. Of course, since Spain usually joins when London falls, it's really a moot point. But Malta would be pretty much helpless without supplies from England.

[Wolfpack]

Originally posted by Mannheim Tanker:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wolfpack:

Definitely not any land or air units. No way they would be able to get across the Atlantic IMHO.

Why not? Just look at how many Polish pilots and soldiers escaped to return again in '44.</font>

[husky65]

Originally posted by Lars:

Re where Strategic bombing will come from after the fall of England.

"Operation Torch. Then work your way up the hard way. Just like real life."

Torch is not going to do well with U-boats based in England and Spain and bombing from N.Africa with fighters based in Spain, France, Italy and N.Africa? ouch.

[John DiFool]

Originally posted by husky65:

Originally posted by Lars:

Re where Strategic bombing will come from after the fall of England.

"Operation Torch. Then work your way up the hard way. Just like real life."

Torch is not going to do well with U-boats based in England and Spain and bombing from N.Africa with fighters based in Spain, France, Italy and N.Africa? ouch.

The Azores and Canaries are absent from the map, so there goes two other potential bases...

John DiFool

[Compassion]

Originally posted by R_Leete:

Partisans in every conquered country should be there, to some extent. Not necessarily to retake the country, but to "nip at the heels" of the agressor. If Germany has to spend MPPs every turn to reinforce 5 different areas, the cost is eventually going to mount up. Between that, the USSR invading and strategic bombing, the idea is to continually bleed off points.

NOt all partisans active fought as in the Balkans and Russia... some places had underground partisan ops that specialized in propaganda, espionage and intelligens (as in the maquis). Wonder what the brit version would be? For sure there would be some sort of resitance going... Foranother it would be a heck of alot harder to supply them.

[Patgod]

i'de say look to the IRA for a resistance force model. i'm speaking more of the "militant ira" or whatever its called these days.

[Compassion]

Originally posted by Patgod:

i'de say look to the IRA for a resistance force model. i'm speaking more of the "militant ira" or whatever its called these days.

But the IRA has (at least in the 20th Cenutry) operated with lots of outside support. If Ireland is an Axis minor (as would alomst certainly happen if England falls) there's no way that English partisans get that kind of support.... No way that fundraisers in Boston and New York get to England if under the German boot.

[arax3]

Guys: Hitler's ideas for post-conquest England were somewhat less humane than the Roman treatment or Carthage (destroyed it completely and plowed salt in the remains!) It is unrealistic beyond description to envision an invasion in the face of the Royal Navy, RAF. Remember, the Battle of Britain? Remember the shortage of invasion barges?! IF ole' Hilter could have taken Brits he would have, He could not do it! Hubert, don't leave it so easy to take England. Come on man be a little practical here. L3

[BloodyBucket]

I'm not so sure Adolph was so keen to destroy England after France fell. Didn't he make a lot of comments about how an England was needed in the international order of things? Of course, he expected them to sue for peace...

Certainly Sealion should be possible in the game, and I have an idea that how difficult that turns out to be in the full version will be up to the choices the allied player makes early on.

The idea of an government in exile after the fall of the home island is a good one. Besides the idea that they wouldn't have thrown in the towel, just imagine the thrill of liberating London with Free English forces .

[willgamer]

posted by arax3:

Remember the shortage of invasion barges?! IF ole' Hilter could have taken Brits he would have, He could not do it! Hubert, don't leave it so easy to take England. Come on man be a little practical here.

I'll throw out a tweak for discussion. How about doubling the cost of transport that is allowed to land at a non-port destination. The current Transport choice would become Transport (Port) and a new choice, at double the cost, would be Transport (Any).

Any salutes?

[Lars]

Originally posted by willgamer:

posted by arax3:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Remember the shortage of invasion barges?! IF ole' Hilter could have taken Brits he would have, He could not do it! Hubert, don't leave it so easy to take England. Come on man be a little practical here.

I'll throw out a tweak for discussion. How about doubling the cost of transport that is allowed to land at a non-port destination. The current Transport choice would become Transport (Port) and a new choice, at double the cost, would be Transport (Any).

Any salutes? </font>