Guns instead of rockets

[Polish Bruce Lee]

i think that the rockets shouldnt be in the game untill like tech level 3, untill then, they should have guns like 8 inchers (dont know german arty) however they i dont think that can go 100miles, but i could be wrong. before 1942 1943, they were really no such things as rockets (once again, i think im wrong, no need for name calling)

[Guest Mike]

Rockets doing significant damage at tehis level are really not historical at all - especially not vs field forces.

IIRC German rocket forces did do a bit of damage to Antwerp for a while, but that's about it in terms of significant war damage.

I'd suggest V-1's would be more appropriate at level 3 or so, and could be defended against by air fleets (although not taking losses - the airfleets would decrease losses on the target).

There were no really long ranged guns used in WW2 for strategic bombardment - the V-4 (V-3??) was an almost that might've been nasty.

[Guest Mike]

Actually there's a thought for icon modders - V1 for level 3 rockets, v-2 for level 4, and the V-4 multi-chamgered gun for level 5!!

Perhaps the Paris gun from WW1 for level 2, and a big cannon for level 1??

[Polish Bruce Lee]

hey yea, that sounds good, like a big greta gun or big rail gun for like level 2, and for level 0 and 1 just regular 17cm or 24 cm guns, however, like i said they only go like at 41,000 yds, and the 17 18,000yds i dont know what that comes out to, but it aint 100 miles

[Norse]

Before ww2, the Germans began work on 70cm, 80cm, 85cm, and 100cm guns (measured in centimeters, not like the 88mm flak guns) as a countermeasure to the Maginot defences. In 1941, Schwerer Gustav fired a 7 ton shell 37 kilometers.

Heavy Railway Artillery unit 672 saw action in the Sevastapol battle. The unit posessed a 80cm gun named Dora. Later in the war, the artillery unit got an overhaul, and in 1943 they had the capability to fire 47km.

Later, a 52cm railroad artillery piece called Langer Gustav, could fire up to 160km by firing rocket-assisted shells. I don't know if this piece actually saw combat or if the war ended too soon.

I know the Germans had some extremely huge railroad artillery pieces for Leningrad as well (possibly unit 672, too tired to look this up).

IMHO the rocket unit fills the role of both extremely huge railroad guns and the V1 and V2 rockets, as I see the research put into this would come up with both things, just aimed at different targets. Wouldn't really make sence for SC to have 2 different units with the exact same capabilities.

Portrayed in this game, I'd say the Germans built 2 rocket units, just my guess. First deployed against the Russians and then against England. They must have put atleast one research chit on this rocket tech and kept it there during the war.

It has been discussed why artillery should be bought at all. It's advantage over airunits is that it doesn't take damage when it bombards the enemy, but it hasto be operated into the area where the enemy resistance is stiff. Not sure if it is worth it. Have anyone gotten a really high tech on rockets, and can tell what kind of damage they can do in this game?

~Norse~

[Norse]

I checked this out. I took France and the low countries, bought 3 rocket units and placed 5 tech chits on rocket research. I had no real luck with the rockets. I placed them in the low countries and kept hitting the London harbour, with the rockets having 3 hexes in range. They did abselutely minimal damage (of course, I might have been just unlucky). I reached level4, and by that time I had bought another rocket unit. The range increased from 3 to 4 hexes, so I hit the harbour again, and it went from 9 to 4. After that I hit the corps in London, with 4 rocket units on level 4, I reduced it from 10 to 9. It took 1 point in damage. Hmm, nah, I'll rather go with the u-boats.

~Norse~

[gorski]

I did some tests also. The range seems to make a difference. A tech 5 rocket can fire 5? hexes but is most effective at range 2. A unit in the open is far more susceptible to rocket fire than a unit in a city. My current opinion of rockets, limited by beta demo experience, is that they might be an excellent late war attrition unit if you have total air superiority and semi static battle lines.

Gorski

[[Wiking]]

Well no need for a fuss the game has gone gold, soo...

[Camicie Nere]

I seem to recall hearing about a project the Germans were working on in which they had built a high-velocity rapid-firing cannon directly into a French hillside for purposes of bombarding London. Apparently the RAF got wind of this and managed to destroy the site. It was described - wherever I heard it - as having tremendous potential as a terror weapon. Supposedly it was to be able to literally rain HE shells on London due to an extremely unconventional design allowing it to be loaded from multiple points.

It doesn't really have anything to do with SC, but I am interested in learning more about it and wonder if anyone out there knows of a site or of more info dealing with this (also I am interested in the next-gen permutations of the V-2.)

[wbs]

From Camicie Nere:

I seem to recall hearing about a project the Germans were working on in which they had built a high-velocity rapid-firing cannon directly into a French hillside for purposes of bombarding London. Apparently the RAF got wind of this and managed to destroy the site.

I believe this was the V-3.

[DevilDog]

I remember reading about that as well. Could it have been in "Bodyguard of Lies"?

[Straha]

About the V3:

http://www.geocities.com/herrvermylen3/V-3.html

Straha

[Von_Manteuffel]

At 50 miles per hex, artillery components are included in the strength of the infantry and armor. The rockets did seem kind of weird to me in this game, but Germany could have had them earlier if they had worked on it more.

I doubt I'll waste my MPP's on them though...

[pzgndr]

At 50 miles per hex, artillery components are included in the strength of the infantry and armor

With no stacking in the game, rockets are an abstract way of representing the whole spectrum of ranged attack weapon systems that don't need to be in the way of front line combat units, which becomes important on narrow attack frontages. This includes long range cannon and rail guns like the ones used to bombard Sevastopol, German nebelwerfer and Russian rocket artilley units, and ultimately the V-series rockets. If the game had stacking, then we could haggle about more realistic ranges. As it is, rockets appear to be an interesting component of the unit mix. Research and employment strategies should continue to be a good topic for debate, as already seen here.

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by Bill Macon:

With no stacking in the game, rockets are an abstract way of representing the whole spectrum of ranged attack weapon systems that don't need to be in the way of front line combat units, which becomes important on narrow attack frontages.

I would agree, and go so far as to suggest that in a future SC, we are provided another unit -- Mobile Artillery Detachment, on the order of the SiG or Wespe. Tech affected or not. Range could be 2, and cost appropriate to prevent abuse.

Anecdotal report: In a recent game, I got rockets up to level 14. Because I hadn't gotten any Industrial advance, this was so expensive that I only bought one because I was very interested to see what might happen.

Well, at the outset of Barbarossa, I attacked a front-line Russian Army, and it was reduced from 10 to 4. That's 6 SP damage on one launch! :eek:

Somebody wondered if it would be worth it to invest in rockets? I would think -- yes. Though you absolutely would need Air Support. I have never had any sized Air Fleet do comparable damage to a fresh infantry unit.

[ July 26, 2002, 01:17 AM: Message edited by: Immer Etwas ]

[Guest Mike]

Nah - rockets aren't anything abstracted at all.

they're here because you can't make a WW2 game without the Germans having rockets!!

[husky65]

Originally posted by Immer Etwas:

"I would agree, and go so far as to suggest that in a future SC, we are provided another unit -- Mobile Artillery Detachment, on the order of the SiG or Wespe. Tech affected or not. Range could be 2, and cost appropriate to prevent abuse."

The SiG was a direct fire 150mm and the Wespe an indirect fire 105mm, neither would reach halfway across the hex they are in, let alone reach 2 hexes.

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by husky65:

The SiG was a direct fire 150mm and the Wespe an indirect fire 105mm, neither would reach halfway across the hex they are in, let alone reach 2 hexes.

You are right to call me on this, since I did not explain my own rationale.

I am unaware of the actual firing distance of either unit. What I was after was a unit that would provide the artillery EFFECT that would solve some of those narrow frontages that Bill spoke about (as in North Afrika -- one hex wide as you near Alexandria, etc).

Mobile units COULD be understood -- over a week or 2 week time frame -- to have made firepower attacks on a position, and then retreated to a safer position behind the lines, since they are MOBILE after all.

Without stacking, you obviously couldn't leave them on the front line, as they would be the first unit targeted, so I proposed a 2 hex range to solve this problem -- it wan't meant as an exact replication of firing distance.

However, having said that, I can readily see that this abstraction would not easily fit into this scale. Artillery units -- except for those huge rail guns already mentioned, probably have to be considered as part of an Army.

The fact that I would personally enjoy manipulating little Wespes doesn't change the fact that they would be hard to rationalize in this scale of a game, and as you have tersely pointed out, they can't shoot but a half a hex or so... perhaps it is very nearly... just too too Aesthetic-Romantic to want to include them.

[Polish Bruce Lee]

blah, i still think art should only be in play till you discover rockets at tech level 3, all i want is a differant sprite