SC: House Rules Stink

[Liam]

I mean I have used the Riga gambit and the LC gambit a few times though these rules really stink. If you're gonna stop Rome I want you to stop LC and Italy Gambit altogether! Plus this immediate fact that a country declares war on Portugal the minute you invade Spain after the US and Russia have entered to prevent you from getting the plunder. Lets just get rid of the bidding process, and make it less confusing. If someone manages to take Rome...Let us Axis players figure a counter. I'm not playing under any such rule or restriction. Only people who would have no skill to learn a defence for themself. These are all gamey rules and options! Why limit yourself in a game that allows Italian transports to invade the Continental USA and take it singlehandledy like butter. Do you know that there was never a chance of such a thing? People actually believe there was... The Germans couldn't get into Britian<few miles of their occuppied coastline and they were much more advanced than the Italians>, and the Japanese couldn't even get Midway against a inferior foe.

I'm sure the bigboys already got a counter! to the Rome Gambit... PROTEST PROTEST HERE HE

[ June 09, 2003, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

[xwormwood]

BTW: the germans never really tried, because of Barbarossa, and Japan would have easiliy conquered this lousy Midway Islands if their code wouldn't have been broken by the Allies.

I agree that no invasion in the classical way could have been done by Italy or any Axis Power. But: if they really would have (luckily) sailed with their entire fleet into the harbor of New York in 1940, it would have been a disaster for the city. Some rounds into Manhattan, would have been terrible for the population. In the remaining rubbles even small forces would have been able to fight some weeks.

[edit]

BTW. German bombers flew within sight of the US coast. Was there some kind of CAP over NY or any other US cities during the 2nd WW?

[ June 09, 2003, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: xwormwood ]

[SeaWolf_48]

xWORMwood

If, if the Americans hadn't broke the code, some pretty smart guys did that work before the war started, and had to keep updating as it evolved. None the less The Japs never took Midway, in the game SC we won't have a possiblity to do this scenario until when?

The Gemans could have never sailed into New York Harbor because of 1) British Navy 2) Canadian Navy 3) US Navy. Could never happen!

German bombers didn't have the range from france to New York and back. They could have flown on a suicide mission however.

[Iron Ranger]

Yes at time's house rule's Suck, and in general I'm not for them BUT:

They are needed if its not possable for the program to see all outcomes.

Balance, or more 'fun' / 'even' play

For the reason's the Tierf listed a few days ago. We need to 'help' new players and beating the snot out of them in turn 5 is not the way to do this.

So the bottom line is - are House Rules bad - YES - are the required in Ladder Games - YES, if evenly used.

[Liam]

I know a German bomber never touched US Soil but there were plans to launch one against the Panama Canal in a suicide mission, not sure if a Jap or German idea...think both. Attempting to walk into the USA at such a time. That I suppose would be a pitiful waste of time sending the American public into full war mobilisation overnight.

We gave the Brits our outdated junk. We could have restored that in a 6 months had the 2nd largest fleet in the Atlantic Ocean. Our WW1 tech should be roughly comparable to Italian equipment as it proved itself throughout the war.

The biggest threat would've been Sub Raiding against our supplies and being cut off from our Pacific Colonies and Allies then our lifeline through the Canal. Even though the US was pretty self sufficient and would've been a Russia like campaign for any real attempt by Germany<a Power lead well enough to fight the US> or Japan..Which was primarily made up of Infantry and after some early success would've probably been pushed back into the Pacific Ocean by millions of Nationilistic Partisan Americans with Shotguns... Come on people, who was making all those war supplies for Britian and Russia? We were!!! Our industry would've been untouchable by strategic bombing from either Asia or Europe aside from terror bombing that hadn't evolved and was proven never to win wars just piss off your foe.

[Liam]

It is true we had no army in 1939 at wars start. Though we had no threats either.<we could build distribute and man an army of ten million in a few months like every other nation> Had one arose, I'm sure we could've mobilized as well as any other<probably much better> WW2 halfbutt Power like France or Russia. Just Russia was too big to fall in a few weeks...

The House rules ruin the game play. Get rid of bidding... Or change fall weiss automatically, the player's Fall Weiss 39, used by all forum and SC players instead of the original scenario.

[ June 09, 2003, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

[Iron Ranger]

The plan for the Panama Canal was done by the Japs (that I know of, a serious plan, involving a task force and seaplane tenders).

There is an exellent book on the effects of sub raiding in US waters during 1942, wish I still had the book so I could give you the title. The german subs (only 2-7 at a time) were really causing problems and singlehandly almost pushed the allied shiping down the dain before the mass produced ship came into being. Another 2-3 months of tonage lost and operation Torch never would have happened setting the entire time table back one year. Interesting what would have happened then in USSR and the German Tech program (Jets, Rockets ect...).

[xwormwood]

SeaWolf_48

Well, i wasn't talking of a suicide raid. Test flights were made from france to the US and back by the german Luftwaffe in WW2, that is no joke. My question: were there fighters or an air defense system on the east coast or not?

Even though i was talking about the Italian Fleet steeming into NY: in 1940, when the war readiness was pretty low in the US, a pearl harbor like strike with battleships or heavy cruisers, slipping luckily though sleepy and unprepared, underdeveloped navys, would have been a major disaster for a city filled with skyscrapers.

Maybe it would have never been possible, but on the other hand Pearl Harbor did happen, and the turkey shot of american trading vessel (german subs against the unprepared US) did happen as well.

And the mighty british navy let the entire german fleet slip through "their" channel. All a question of timing, training and of course: luck.

[ June 09, 2003, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: xwormwood ]

[jon_j_rambo]

X-Worm --- The Germans couldn't even successfully fly the Hiddenberg Zepplin over to the United States. So with that pitiful performance by the Nazis, we didn't need CAP. Remember, the Germans were OVER-RATED. Killing sleeping farmers, women & children with tanks doesn't count. All it took to defeat Denmark, Norway, LC, & France was to drive a tank to their capital. Why? Because those countries wanted to become Nazis themselves! They hated Jews just like the Germans. Note: I didn't list the Poles with the other collabrators. The Japs were OVER-RATED too. Anybody can attack at 7:00 a.m. on Sunday when we're not at war.

Far as your crap about an Axis navy in New York City, are you kidding me? Everybody here is packing heat (see 2nd Ammendment, N.R.A.) You'd have everybody down at the beach fighting to the death & wouldn't even need a draft.

"Freedom's just another word, for nothing else to lose" --- Janis Joplin

"We made a promise, swore we'd always remember, no retreat, no surrender" --- The Boss

"We don't dial 911" --- N.R.A. slogan.

[Iron Ranger]

back on topic - House rules stink - but i'm trying to convince people to play me now with house rules - Ying/Yang life I guess.

[xwormwood]

jon_j:

why am i not surprised to see that your wrote again such childlike statements? come on, i don't want to argue with you, but why do you always post this farmer-rubbish, ignoring all the facts?

Sir Jersey always speaks good of you, would be glad to learn some day why. There has to be a nice John out there, would be honored to to read from him, because i already know everything of Mr. Jon_J Hyde

---

finaly there is one interesting thread today after all, even though it needed me to start the fire

[ June 09, 2003, 09:36 PM: Message edited by: xwormwood ]

[xwormwood]

http://www.danshistory.com/ww2/germanb.shtml

In January of 1944 a prototype of a German heavy bomber, the Ju 390, took off on a top secret mission. This six engine bomber, the largest aircraft made by the Germans during the war, carried enough fuel to stay in the air for 32 hours. Testing the feasibilty of bombing New York city in the United States the Ju 390 came within 12 mi (20 km) of the American Coast undetected. Averaging 222 mph (357 km/h) during the 6,000 mi (9656 km) round-trip which took more than a day the bomber sucessfully returned to base.

------------------

Some more comments (sorry, i am a weak person as well) to jon_j:

The Germans couldn't even successfully fly the Hiddenberg Zepplin over to the United States.

No, they couldn't, because they only had the HINDENBURG Zeppelin.

So with that pitiful performance by the Nazis, we didn't need CAP. Remember, the Germans were OVER-RATED. Killing sleeping farmers, women & children with tanks doesn't count. All it took to defeat Denmark, Norway, LC, & France was to drive a tank to their capital. Why? Because those countries wanted to become Nazis themselves! They hated Jews just like the Germans.

Insulting me is ok, insulting the people of these states, who died while fighting and suffering under the most evil terror the world has ever seen is NOT.

Note: I didn't list the Poles with the other collabrators. The Japs were OVER-RATED too. Anybody can attack at 7:00 a.m. on Sunday when we're not at war.

that was my point: when someone is not at war surprises are possible

Far as your crap about an Axis navy in New York City, are you kidding me? Everybody here is packing heat (see 2nd Ammendment, N.R.A.) You'd have everybody down at the beach fighting to the death & wouldn't even need a draft.

sure, never said anything against this

[jon_j_rambo]

Worm --- Remember, I'm my own person, I don't run to Jersey. Don't even try to drag others into it. Your comments about New York City after a Axis naval invasion being a diaster for the United States is a joke. So your one test Bomber hits us, once. Pearl Harbor = they got Nuked. 911 = Bye, bye Saddam. If people hit us with something "Big", you'll see countries being removed from the planet, forever.

1) My spelling of Hiddenburg shows I don't care enough to spell check for you. I nominate you the official "Forum Spell Checker".

2) As nations, Denmark, Norway, France, & LC were Pro-Nazi anyways. There were some individuals who resisted, but the majority embraced the Nazis. Those people saluted whatever flag was being raised. Who helped them point out the "undesireables"? Nothing has changed with those countries today. They are against the foriegn policies of the United States, are anti-Israel, & only care about their own liberal Socialist skins.

3) Far as future surprises against the United States, I'm sure our enemies are planning now. They won't like counter.

Have a nice day,

Rambo

[ June 09, 2003, 10:43 PM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

[xwormwood]

"Try to think, Baldrick. Thinking is so important"

(BlackAdder)

Where have i written "about New York City after a Axis naval invasion being a diaster for the United States" ?

I love to play games like SC, and i like to write, post about and play some fantasy scenarios. No offence meant, so let us stop this "my daddy can whip your daddy" game, ok?

Your enumeration:

1) no, it shows only that you often enough don't bother about facts

2) they weren't, they aren't

3) God bless the USA, many friends over there

So, peace brother, ok?

I wish you a nice day, too. Honestly.

[SpitfireMarkX]

These rules do suck.

I usually dont wanna get into these things, but Germany was not overrated, and none of those countrys were pro-nazi, especially Lower Countries, and France for that matter. The Germans were a machine, they just could not have the industry or population to win the war. A fleet reaching New York! HA! imposible.

but the majority embraced the Nazis.

Thats idiotic, No concoured countrys majority embraced the Nazi's, France, Holland, Belgum, there resistance was an influencial reason for victory.

[jon_j_rambo]

Yeah, my list of Nazis isn't complete! Please add the Czechs, half of Yugoslavia, Italy, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria & Finland. The Brazilians, Swiss, & Swedes helped too. Japs weren't Nazis, but they were their own form of evil & a member of the Axis powers.

"You're either with them or against them" --- sort of like Bush's take.

[ June 09, 2003, 11:22 PM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

[xwormwood]

Brad T.

I used this poor, helpless thread to learn something new about the defense preparations on the US east coast.

I know that in WW2 no axis fleet could have threatend NY City.

Sorry to all house-rule haters, next time i start my own thread which you can take then by force for house-rule discussions, ok?

[JerseyJohn]

General Rambo and Baron von xwormwood -- in Alphabetical Order.

Though the Hindenburg did explode not far from where I live - my 86-year-old mother-in-law actually saw the disaster! -- it ran numerous successful flights and was sound except for using hydrogen instead of helium, which made it highly combustible. A larger German dirigible, the Graf Zeppelin, never had a problem. None of this had anything to do with German incompetence, the United States, Great Britain and Italy all had derivable catastrophes.

On the German conquest of America issue I have to state what I said in the firs posting I made on day one. It would have been impossible. This was not because the Germans were less capable of handling a transatlantic operation than the Americans, but for two other reasons. (1) Lack of naval resources – Germany had neither the transport nor the escort capacity to conduct a reverse Operation Torch. Even possessing both those attributes, the United States in 1942 barely pulled off it’s own long range amphibious operation in Morocco and Algeria. The troops were landed but they could hardly move for lack of supplies. The same transports that landed the troops had to return with their supplies after a considerable delay. That is the reason Germany was able to assemble von Arnim’s ad hoc army in Tunisia. Additionally, the six months it took to establish the American presence in North Africa were among the worst periods for convoy losses – most of the escort vessels were tied up protecting the transport operation. (2) Germany, even when she had a large Baltic Fleet under the Kaiser, was never the naval power that either the United States or Britain were traditionally. As a consequence the German Admiralty never developed the requisite skills required of such a large oceanic operation.

Given the proper naval resources, there’s no doubt in my mind competent admirals such as Raeder could have learned those skills, possibly by taking small objectives such as Iceland and the Azores first, but to start out with the most massive operation first would have been inviting disaster. I should be noted that the United States improved upon each of it’s amphibious operations. Due to the nature of the Pacific War it had far more opportunities to learn these techniques than any other nation on earth – except possibly Japan.

Transatlantic flights from Europe to the United States from Germany are a reasonable assumption. The Luftwaffe made at least one test run using a long range bomber. The problem comes in when factoring in bomb-load and range. Additionally, it’s reasonable to assume the U. S. would have prepared for such an operation and stationed interceptors and a long distance radar station 100 miles east of New York City on Long Island. Similar installations would also have been set up farther north along the coast of NE Maine (ironically at another place named Long Island) as a safeguard against strikes directed at Boston. In conclusion I’d be inclined to say such an operation was unfeasible at best.

Except for the Horten Brother’s Flying Wing. This was an excellent long range stealth bomber that has been written about on several other Threads by myself and others. Here too, allowing that these planes might have slipped in and out and successfully dropped their bomb-loads, lacking a WMD the effect would have been primarily for propaganda.

Germany was also working on extremely long range and larger V- weapons but I don’t thing they’d have been any more effective, without an A-bomb, than the flying Wing.

I think very highly of you both and hope you can patch things up. I don’t think Rambo will ever stop making the statements he’s become famous for and I don’t think xwormwood will ever stop responding to them, mutual antagonism is inevitable, but on a personal level you can still be friendly. In a grit your teeth sort of way, of course.

[Liam]

John,

in this particular case I have to agree with you. Germany wasn't cut out for an operation torch of her own. Even with help from Neutrals in S.America. It would've taken a good length of time and defeat of the UK entirely in the Atlantic Pond. After that seizing of key islands along the way Iceland/Greenland/Azores/perhaps some Carribean islands... That would be a minimum requirement then from there the Japs capturing both Pearl/Midway/Panama and perhaps getting a foothold in Alaska. Considering the Industrial Might of the US Strategic bombing would've been another farfetched route. Germans had much more experience in U-boats and lacked a real well rounded Long Range Heavy Bomber. Since in those days few were accurate as they are now adays and the time it takes to take a design from the drawing board to testflight then actual creation.

At earliest I say 1944-45 if Hitler devoted everything into his Navy and listened to his Admirals... Even then it wouldn't be a garaunteed success...

Would've given the US full time to mobilize which would've raised the hair on Stalin's neck...thinking what of a SuperGermany with UK-USA overrun by National Socialism etc... I think the man was paranoid enough to hit when the Germans were spending all these resources in other areas and given him time to reorganize the Russian Military Russia and the US together may have at least forced some sort of reorganized World Balance against the Axis. Depending on how much the Axis were willing to lose...

We're taking into account the Germans had a hard time figuring out in 1940 how to get a glider onto a patch grass maybe 50-80 miles away? That glider containing enough troops and maybe one lt AFV, with enough planes as being the most practical method of attacking the UK for a nation with no Navy... Perhaps if the US would've began it's Silent Service in the Atlantic in '44 as it did with Japan and the Japs sued for peace on getting Alaska and all other foreign US territories the Germans would be the ones afraid to take ocean liners across the 3 thousand mile stretch of death...