SC, 3rd Reich, & some Rambo-ling comments

[Konstantin V. Kotelnikov]

One of the best PC games that comes very close to Panzerblitz/Panzerleader is Talonsofts East Front/West Front.

I love those games dearly. Wish I had more time on my hands so I could play them more.

Just avoid bicycle troops in the snow.

-dave

[Les the Sarge 9-1b]

I have those games as well, but alas only so many hours in the day, and I am something of a Steel Panthers fanatic hehe.

But I suppose I should put a bunch o wear on em as well heheh.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Originally posted by sogard:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andre Bolkonsky:

Nice recap of Avalon Hill, John. You did leave out one point.

Out of that list, in terms of sheer fun and replayability, The Russian Campaign was the best Russian Front tabletop game I've ever played.

Just my humble opinion.

Yes, AVALON HILL was the great prime mover in wargaming; but, by the 1970s, its place as an innovator and trend setter was taken over by the rise of SPI and STRATEGY & TACTICS Magazine.</font>

[Yogi]

The first wargame I played (with my older brother)was the original AH Gettysburg. I won and was hooked. I ended up with almost every AH Game made up till the early 80's. Usually only played each game solitare as it was hard to find opponnents in those days and play by mail was difficult.

I have now switched to computer games hoping each time to find a great AI and a real wargame. To be honest, I wish that many an old boardgame could just be faithfully transferred to computer. There was something about them that few computer games seem able to match. To busy worrying about graphics, sound, 3D and how many can be sold I guess.

Unfortuately we old style wargamers are just to few to attract a multitude of good computer wargames. It apparently is simple economics. Why take the time, money and effort to create great games that don't return enogh profit. Money can be made turning out fantasy junk. As the playstation and similar TV games rise, less and less attention is going to computer games. It is an unfortunate reality. One only has to see what type of games take up the majority of shelf space in software stores. Many of us have to find our games on the internet now, because the stores won't even carry them.

Well enough griping and remembering. I'm just getting old and fondly remembering when a wargame was really a wargame and strategy and history was more important than graphics and fantasy and gimmick.

[Konstantin V. Kotelnikov]

I hear ya Tom,

My first was Panzerblitz, and I remember it well. My friend and I played the Kursk scenario, and I was the germans. Not an easy task for my first game, and I got whooped. And hooked at the same time.

I fondly remember the days of Squad Leader. I had 3 copies of it, lots of it's expansions (4 COI, 4 COD, 2 GI), with all sorts of extra boards and scenarios. We used to set it up on a ping pong table and have team games.

Those times were the best, and I doubt they will ever achieve it with a PC game. Things have changed, and I sold Squad Leader as a lot on Ebay for a couple hundred dollars. I am sorry I did.

I bought Advanced Squad Leader and a few of it's expansions, but those got sold too.

That's what I love about SC, it's got a lot in common with those old board games. Sure it's got some differences, I miss the social interaction the most. Hotseat is fun, but not quite the same.

It's a great game, the best $25 computer game I have.

-dave

Oh and I too had the Avalon Hill "Gettysburg" game. It was the last one I played table-top. I gave it to a reenacting buddy of mine who always loved playing it.

[Compassion]

Originally posted by Konstatin V. Kotelnikov:

I fondly remember the days of Squad Leader. I had 3 copies of it, lots of it's expansions (4 COI, 4 COD, 2 GI), with all sorts of extra boards and scenarios. We used to set it up on a ping pong table and have team games.

Those times were the best, and I doubt they will ever achieve it with a PC game.

Combat Mission is making rrogress on that front. Lots of players try to make it into an armor game, but at it's heart, it's the next step from SL. It's still in it's infancy, but you migh try the demo for one of them, it looks like it could take the crown in a couple of design cycles. It already does a good job, and the leap from the first to the second game was impressive. It'll be interesting to see what happens with the next iteration.

[Konstantin V. Kotelnikov]

Oh yeah, I have looked at Combat Mission Barbarossa to Berlin and I would probably get it down the line if it wouldn't cost me $500+.

What!?!?!?!?!?!?

My PC is a lowly 350mhz with a 3 gig harddrive. Of which the girlfriend has 1.2 gig tied up with her game "The Sims" and all it's expansions.

My computer is fine for what it's used for, so a new one ranks low on the list. A PPSH-41 is my next large money item I am going to purchase.

So many toys, so little money.

D'oh!

[Compassion]

Originally posted by Konstatin V. Kotelnikov:

Oh yeah, I have looked at Combat Mission Barbarossa to Berlin and I would probably get it down the line if it wouldn't cost me $500+.

What!?!?!?!?!?!?

My PC is a lowly 350mhz with a 3 gig harddrive. Of which the girlfriend has 1.2 gig tied up with her game "The Sims" and all it's expansions.

If it has decent 3d video it should be ok for the first game, but you are right, with CM: Barbarrossa to Berlin it would be a quivering wreck.

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by Tom Guequierre:

I'm just getting old and fondly remembering when a wargame was really a wargame and strategy and history was more important than graphics and fantasy and gimmick.

You and me both... it's not quite the same playing games on computer, no matter what elastic flash is splashed -- sometimes half-a**ed & slap-dash (RE: 6 months, AT LEAST, premature release of HoI) alas, all over the place of late.

Sometimes... I get this crawling atavistic crick in my neck... as though, too many in this brave new-old Age are planning for a hasty exit, as though... somebody knows... especially in these times of a mind-less, soul-less, conglomerated Corporate-HQ,

Where noblesse oblige has become a kind of privately snide and a mirthless in-joke to be played on the happily ignorant Public, and that... all is getting to be... very... very... TEMPORARY... :eek:

[Les the Sarge 9-1b]

I just feel sad for the younguns that don't have a room full of real wargames in a closet or a hobby room to fall back on.

I have yet to find a single computer game I will say is better than even some of my blander board games.

[BriantheWise]

Weeelll, just sharing a bit...like all of you old fogies like me. I will try to be succinct (but it's so hard not blather on).

My very first gaem was with the little Airfix units of infantry. The game that caught me was Midway (AH), though it was skewed and seemed like battleship. Then Panzerblitz. Ahhh. That game was holy. You could move the maps around and everything. I bought a second set, just for more stuff. Dear to my heart.

But what I want someone to talk about, since I think it could work well on SC2, or my upcoming game, The World at War, is War at Sea and Victory in the Pacific. Again, simple elegant design. Easy to play, and easy to program.

I just loved those big fat ship counters.

[Konstantin V. Kotelnikov]

Originally posted by BriantheWise:

I just loved those big fat ship counters.

Speaking of Big Fat Ship Counters, remember Avalon Hills Bismarck game?

I always loved giving the birtish player a headache by linking up the Bismarck and Prinz Eugen with the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau.

Convoys look out!!!!!!! :eek:

[J P Wagner]

Or how about Avalon Hill's JUTLAND...I remember setting up all the ship counters on the floor and scurrying about with the movement, range and firing rulers...I see John Hiller at HPS has developed a JUTLAND pc game but it looks like it's real time which is keeping me away from it for now....does anybody have any input about this game?

[Compassion]

Originally posted by J P Wagner:

Or how about Avalon Hill's JUTLAND...

Loved that game. I think I could only ever get two games going because of the household disruption it caused, but loved looking at.

[JerseyJohn]

I'd like to add something but you guys covered all the bases -- except on the Avalon Hill Gettysburg game.

Guequierre just wondering which Gettysburg version you're referring to.

The first one I bought was back around 1960 along with it's twin system, Chancelloresville and the map was laid out in squares. The peices were rectangular division sized with small square HQs and OPs. Cavalry and Artillery were smaller rectangular pieces than Infantry divisions and flanking played a large part in the tactics.

A later version, circa '62 , was laid out on a hexboard map and all the pieces were those small cardboard squares. Infantry had a speed of 2 and it never seemed possible to move things around the way it happened in the actual battle. Then AH put out another version around '70 and a multi-level version a few years later.

They sure covered Gettysburg.

Of all of them I think Jutland was my favorite.

[ December 30, 2002, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Yogi]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

Guequierre just wondering which Gettysburg version you're referring to.

The first one I bought was back around 1960 along with it's twin system, Chancelloresville and the map was laid out in squares.

The first I played was the 1960 version with the square layout. I also had Chancellorsville and the 1970's version of Gettysburg (very good also). In fact I had most every game by AH mentioned by all in this discussion. Since my earlier post I have played quite a bit of SC and I'm happy with the purchase. Once again though I have to admit that as someone else said, I'm still waiting for a computer game near as good as the old boardgames. This wouldn't seem to be hard for someone with the "rights" to the game. The maps and counters can't be hard to do and it would seem that building in the battle table results is much simpler than all the formulas of SC and many other games. Oh well, just wishful thinking from a person not understanding what we call progress.

[JerseyJohn]

Guequierre

Glad to see you go right back there. It's good to talk with someone who remembers those two old games with their beuatiful boards and pieces that reflected front, flanks and rear aspects!

The only thing those games were missing was the fog of war element. Otherwise, they were great.

I doubt I'll ever enjoy playing a wargame as much as I did in the early '60s when AH's D-Day came out, then Stalingrad and Afrika Korps so finely tuned and polished, yet with all that capacity for home-brewed rules. And of course being a kid didn't hurt.

BriantheWise --"The game that caught me was Midway (AH), though it was skewed and seemed like battleship."

The old Midway game where the two opponents held a screen between them and one guy announced where he was searching and the other guy had to say whether anything was there. When I was twelve or so I had a game with my best friend and we went an interminable time with neither of us sighting anthing. Next thing we had a brief wrestling match for the barrier and when we both had a good look at the entire board our voices simultaneously voiced the same words --"You cheater!" And going by some of the postings in neighboring forums it seems some things never change.

[ December 30, 2002, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[J P Wagner]

Jersey, you bring back memories with Midway...I remember how I occasionally used to "cheat in reverse"...for the hell of it I would let my opponent always spot me..used to do that with Battleship too, always announcing HIT no matter what just to see the amazed expression on my friends face...I think I was the only one to actually move my pieces into the line of fire just to see the reactions...

[ December 30, 2002, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: J P Wagner ]

[JerseyJohn]

J P Wagner

Right! The main fun was in driving your opponent nuts. Then we'd go play a pickup baseball game and cheat like hell in that as well. The furious arguments, jugulars red and sticking out, sickle shaped foul lines, player umpires with two sets of rules -- ahhh, the good old days!

[ December 30, 2002, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Konstantin V. Kotelnikov]

Originally posted by J P Wagner:

Or how about Avalon Hill's JUTLAND...I remember setting up all the ship counters on the floor and scurrying about with the movement, range and firing rulers...I see John Hiller at HPS has developed a JUTLAND pc game but it looks like it's real time which is keeping me away from it for now....does anybody have any input about this game?

Never had the chance to play Jutland, but I understand Jutland and Bismarck where similiar.

Bismarck was great on the blue carpet with those paper range measures. That was until the Giant Ship Mauling Siamese Cat descended upon a random fleet and well...

Mauled it. :eek:

[JerseyJohn]

Konstatin --

"That was until the Giant Ship Mauling Siamese Cat descended upon a random fleet and well..."

In my house it was a lion sized domesticated mouser. He was the vanest, most attention seeking creature I'd ever seen but I got through high school with his sleeping body across my homework.

We'd usually have two wars, one on the board and the other along the approaches to my desk, where the games were played. Eventually he always executed the decisive leap, generally when no one expected it or even knew he was in the room.

The worst part was I could never become angry at him. My best rebuke was having him roll over across the hopelessly scattered Russian campaign while I pet him and said "Bad cat, Bad-Bad Cat!" as he licked my hand. Needless to say my friends doubted the sincerity of my disciplinary action.

Which led directly to the good part. Before long we always played at their houses!

[Konstantin V. Kotelnikov]

Cats and the old board games never mixed well. Once they knocked over a glass of water onto my squad leader game. Man those little pieces can absorb a lot of water.

With the PC games they just sit in front of the monitor demanding attention. Easier to deal with.

Of course then there is the issue of Cockatiels and 3 foot models of the Titanic. Would have made for a great moster movie. A giant cockatiel tangled in the rigging.

Can't get this sort of entertainment with PC games.

I suppose we could program in a random animal factor. Wouldn't be the same.

[JerseyJohn]

Konstantin

It would have to simulate the old silent leap from behind! It took cats too long to perfect their unique quirks and if we ever got PCs to properly imitate them they'd spend half the time disdainfully ignoring us and the other half jumping on our laps. Think I'll pass on putting a feline AI in my machine!

Dogs are also a menace to board gaming. The problem is, in their case it's sheer clumsiness and impulsive charges for no sensible reason.

With cats it's something else. It's a sense of jealosy -- the pieces are getting more attention than they are. The last cat I owned (thankfully my wife is alergic to them) felt this way toward my keyboard. Many times I had to attempt touch typing with that crazy cat lying across my wrists. Which isn't easy! Most of the problem is I can't control them. Through some miracle I've never had a house training problem with them but I suspect it's more their choice than my training of them.

Having gone eight years without them and no prospect of ever again sharing a house with one (nobody ever owns a cat), probably I don't miss their antics. Until reminiscenses like these occur. So I will reminisce no more lest I end up saying to my wife "Oh come on, he's an outside cat -- he'll never even come near the door!"

And what guy wants to lie, especially to his wife.

[ December 30, 2002, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Supreme Axis]

I fell in love with my first wargame, that was called Storm Across Europe. Fairly basic interface, thoug ahead of it's time. 1989, roughly equivelant to Battlefront SC...better graphics, a little boardgame quality. I then played Eastern Front and beat it in a few days. It does come with AI... the one by SSI, all their games were halfway entertaining though I got bored of pure hex/supply/math combat.<of course it's all math> the difference in real life<chance & all the variables are impossible to match> Axis & Allies was an old favourite!

I also love High Command, Iron Cross, Air Warrior 1-3, World War 2 Online<a interface probably unmatched yet in realistic 3-D enviroment Simulation of fall of France combat>

[Konstantin V. Kotelnikov]

Ah you kids and your computer games.

My first computer game was Colonial Conquest for the Commodore C-64. I loved that game. I still have it even though I doubt it still works. I know the C-64 doesn't as it went out in the garbage years ago.

I really wish someone would put that out again. If the can do it with the old atari 2600 games, they could do it with CC.

We used to play it all the time. It was a good game for up to six people. One would do his turn while the rest of us hung out in another room making alliances and plotting. Then we would all get together and watch the action part.

I loved dumping spare money into the pacific islands. Then someone would come along and try to conquer fiji only to find they have a 2 million man army. They would shriek and then try to find out which of us did it.

Loads of fun!!!!