Minotaur Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Originally posted by jjhays: I would buy it for the simple fact I have been waiting for a COS2 since 1991... now lets see if any body in here remembers that little jewel from the early 90's Clash of Steel... :cool: This and I played... - High Command (Spend most of your time managing ressources than fighting a war) - Third Reich (finishing France in 1942 ?!?) + countless WW2 Mods (Civ 2, TOAW, etc...) And now Strategic Command!!!... My 5 reasons why I bought this game? 1) I played 5-6 times the demo (I bought it after my 3rd time!...) 2) Simplicity (At last, it's gone the time when you must take an hour to play a turn!...) 3) Impressive AI... 4) Simplicity x2 (Not a throng of statistic to remember... Neither too much planning... (No more buying a Battleship and it arrives a year later!!!)) 5) Pure, simple fun playing a game with hexagon!!! (Never feel that since Panzer General...) The only thing I miss is a printed manual... But I can live with that... We don't have too much Acrobat to read, simple as it is... And for the record, It's the second game I bought from Battlefront.com... The first is Combat Mission: Beyond Overlord and I liked it!... [ February 12, 2003, 02:16 AM: Message edited by: Minotaur ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Clash of Steel and High Command are the two main predecessors of this game that I know of. Both of them were DOS. Two others were Third Reich , also DOS and Big 3, in Windows 3.1. All four of these dealt directly with the war in Europe and had maps that covered roughly the same area as SC. COS and HiCom were discussed fairly often in previous forums and I think most of us know something of their good points and flaws. Both could have been further developed but weren't. COS was probably the better game but needed to have some bugs worked out and could have used scenario revisions and perhaps an SC style scenario editor. HiCom tried to cover too many aspects in too much detail and was mired in far too much micromanagement. There were alternatives to allow the computer to cover those functions except the AI in this case was hopeless. The game was far too complicated for a computer. It's only feasable method was in a head to head capacity except for two factors: 1) it had no pbem option and (2) The Allies didn't appear at all till the Axis invaded a country and even then there was usally a chance the World War wouldn't be triggered, which left the Axis playing alone if he chose not to attack Poland! It's good points were some semblance of a diplomatic system and various ways of improving the economy, etc.. The game could also have been played entirely without going to war on a political, economic, industrial and research level. I enjoyed it personally but found the AI a horrible opponent and the game itself too weighed down with details. Big 3 was a very simple game and, while enjoyable enough to play and possessing some interesting ideas, wasn't as serious an effort as either SC or the other games mentioned here. Computer Third Reich [DOS] I thought was pretty terrible. The rules were full of tips like The computer, for reasons of it's own, never defends the northeastern hex of the Maginot Line; a wise Axis player should seize it and . . . and to me that is ridiculous. The whole game was like that. In another section the game designer flatly stated The Axis can't win but he can put up the best possible fight and . . . well, I for one happen to think Hitler at one stage pretty much had the war won and don't care for the instruction manual stating that I have to lose as the Axis. No thanks! Another weird thing, again coming out of the designer's manual, was advice that on the first turn Germany might want to attempt defending on all fronts in order to grab Yugoslavia instead of Poland -- hello, but if Yugo is the target how is Poland in the war and why is it assumed England and France are in it either? So I gave my $50 copy of this dud to a friend who loved the board game version. Last I heard he also gave it away but at least it hadn't cost him anything. SC is easily the best game of the War in Europe I've seen to date and I don't expect anyone to come along with a better product anytime soon. As a matter of fact, if Hubert keeps improving his basic concept I don't think anyone will come along with a better strategic version of World War Two in Europe at any time. [ February 12, 2003, 03:52 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert Cater Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Read through this thread a bit and just wanted to say thanks for the good word guys! Hubert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaka of Carthage Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Regarding the WWII games, pretty much agree with what JerseyJohn said. My only comment is about Computer Third Reich. Third Reich should be judged on its merits as a boardgame. Not the computer version. The computer version was an attempt to bring the boardgame to the computer, basically just a port. All it pointed out was that designing a game for the computer vs one for manual play are two totally different creatures. It would have been alot better for the users if Computer Third Reich just used the computer as an aid for playing the game. Like what Aide de Camp does. Thats what happens when the marketing types get to decide things they know nothing about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Shaka Agreed. I was only talking about the computer fiasco, which was very well presented, two great manuals, nice map, etc., but unfortunately a lousy product! You're assesment about marketing types taking control and ruining things is 100% correct. Gitz is never equal to quality. Hubert As Sgt Joe Friday used to say in Dragnet, "Just [stating] the facts." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minotaur Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Originally posted by Shaka of Carthage: Third Reich should be judged on its merits as a boardgame. Not the computer version. Couldn't agree more... It has some good ideas (like the "Panzer-Jump") but the AI was unable to play properly... Imagine a map a little bigger than SC, but each turn represent 3 months!!! So if you did a mistake, you lost 3 months... Play aggressively and perhaps you will be on time... Play too carefully and you lost so much time that you conquer France around 1941-1942... And the AI didn't play carefully or agressively... It play badly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Shaka Khan --- Hey, where did you go in our game? We got the disconnect right on the initial attack on Russia. Maybe you computer crapped out on you. Your takes on 3R-board game are right on. I never had any trouble taking France. SeaLion was impossible. What the real joke of 3R was the combat charts. Full-Exchange in Poland costs dearly on the first 2-1 role of the game. Too much luck, game took forever to get a turn, no FOW....Hey that was the early 80's I played that game. So it's a classic. Speaking of the 80's...maybe I should call you "Chaka of Land of the Lost" since you didn't return after the disconnect. Hashish --- So what do you think? Join the Ladder, play the top competition in the world. Sir Jersey John & Minotaur --- What other computer games do you suggest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Greetings General Rambo Up till SC most of the computer games I liked were DOS and already mentioned. In windows I liked the I-Magic Civil War game. It had things like river and coastal amphibeous operations and leaders whose abilities you didn't know about till they either began excelling or screwing up, that sort of thing. It had a major glitch where the Union armies would suddenly run out of supplies in mid 1863 but a patch was finally put out for that. Unfortunately it doesn't play well except on an old computer as it's Windows 3.1 program. Sierra's Lords of the Realm is also pretty good though a bit old now. On the toughest settings you're not only fighting a bunch of rivals but taking care of a feudal economy with peasants who might rebel if you don't treat them properly. It's another program that doesn't work well in Windows XP. Other than that I played a lot of Civ and Call to Power with their IIs and IIIs but that sort of game gets to be tedious after a while. A few other games, such as SSIs Fighting Steel also seem pretty good. I liked Steel Panthers, Panzer General and Pacific General when they first came out but haven't played them since that time. SSIs DOS series, Great Naval Battles also has some good points but their time has definitely past. I've boutht Shogun, Imperialism & Imp II, Europa Universals, Empire Earth, Ancient Empires etc., but never really got into any of them. I don't particularly care for Axis and Allies or Risk. A big part of the reason is there's no way of playing without having to put up with the fluff between moves. A few years went by where I wasn't interested in wargames. SC brought me back into it. And what other computer games do you recommend? [ February 13, 2003, 02:04 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullwinkle Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Jersey, speaking of computer games, one of my favorites is Carriers At War by SSG. The computer always plays a challenging game. It's still on my hard drive after all these years. Which segueys into my favorite AH game of all time - Midway (as long as you can trust the other guy not to cheat). I haven't played the newer version mainly because I no longer have a live opponent (my wife absolutely refuses and my 3 year old keeps knocking down the screen when I play against him) so I don't know if it's better than the older version I loved so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 BullWinkle Agreed, Carriers at War is a great DOS game. It's on the hard drive of my old computer; I've stopped trading them in as the old programs don't seem to run properly on the newer machines, assuming they run at all! When I was a kid my friends and I tried Midway just once. In the only game we played I was Yammamoto against my buddy Spruance while the others kibitzed. After hours of non-spotting we had a wrestling match over the screen and both shouted in unison, "You Cheater!" and we were both speaking the truth. All through the sixties I waited for a real fog of war to become possible and was glad when computers came along and it finally happened. Now I'm waiting for AIs to become intelligent enough to allow it's use! But at least it's there for pbem and ip play and makes those games infinitely better than they'd otherwise be. [ February 14, 2003, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compassion Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Originally posted by jjhays: AH 1914 or even Guns of August we failures, never did find a good wargame for that period. As for Tactics2 I loved that game and that was what started my interest many years ago. If you are willing to try going old school, an excellent WWI board wargame came out a couple years ago called Paths of GLory. After hearing the praises from players and reviewer sung about this game I gave it a try... and loved it. First time I spread out a board and punched counters in about 10 years and it was worth it. THis is the game that we waited for. If you can take going back to tabletops, this is definately one to try http://www.gmtgames.com/nnpg/pog_main.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve C Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 Originally posted by JerseyJohn: When I was a kid my friends and I tried Midway just once. In the only game we played I was Yammamoto against my buddy Spruance while the others kibitzed. After hours of non-spotting we had a wrestling match over the screen and both shouted in unison, "You Cheater!" and we were both speaking the truth. All through the sixties I waited for a real fog of war to become possible and was glad when computers came along and it finally happened. Now I'm waiting for AIs to become intelligent enough to allow it's use! But at least it's there for pbem and ip play and makes those games infinitely better than they'd otherwise be. [/qb]LOL, Jersey John. Great story about Midway. . I played those games too but I guess the will to win at any cost was not as strong in my family. On second thought, I'm not so sure. Stupid chess tournament losses tended to put me into a deep funk - one reason I stopped playing seriously. And my wife never has let me live down that time I got really pissed at my stepson for killing off my catapults in Conquest of the Empire by dropping the dice "just so" to get a good roll instead of shaking 'em up like a man. At least, that was my view of it. :mad: Regarding AI, it would seem that if a computer program capable of beating Gary Kasparov can be written, that we should at some point see some outstanding AI in the wargaming scene as well. Of course, who knows how many man hours went into defeating Kasparov on a mere 64 squares vs. how many hexes in SC ? Working on his own, I have to salute Hubert for making it as good as he did. Yeah, I have played a lot of strategy games as well. Funny how much time I spent enjoying Civ 2 and when I bought Civ3 doing things like upgrading the sewer system in East Bumf*ck to reduce citizen unrest just bore the hell out of me now. Ditto frantically trying to rebuild my burning docks in Age of Empires as they got trashed by hordes of blue AI galleys. I'm thinking, "Damn, this sucks ! How can people enjoy playing something like this" :confused: I liked the original Panzer General a lot, but can't be bothered to play in DOS these days. The game's AI seemed okay, capable of local tactical surprises but was never capable of mounting anything like a coherent offensive. Guess that's why you always got to attack and the computer defend. Anyhow to end the long ramble, I'm still hungry for some more operational level action. Just ordered Panzer Campaigns: Smolensk '41 and I'll see how that plays. Reportedly the AI is quite good. [ February 14, 2003, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: Steve C ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 Steve C. It looks like we've both gone through the same experiences with these things. My older brother and myself used to yell at each other about dice rolls playing Risk , we eventually wound up with a Rube Goldberg thing I built out of scrap wood where the dice were thrown into an opening, tumbled through an eternal labarynth and rolled out on a felt pad. It made so much noise we had to play in the basement with the door closed, which was where we belonged anyway. In Chess I think you also went through the same gambit. A decade back I'd lose sleep over a few rating points. And the foolish part is the tournaments I went to were all in Manhattan, where even Grandmasters were in over-abundance (I'm sure the same is true in SF, LA and Chicago), so it isn't even like I was trying to be the best in town. Especially since, in this case town meant the whole damn world as every tournament saw a bunch of Russkies and Yugoslavians dropping by to push some wood and collect their checks. Those guys start off at birth as masters. Then we had the ringers with Eastern European accents and names nobody knew playing as amateurs and winning all the prize money. Later, out in the hall, you'd see them laughing and joking with the identified Russian masters and later my Russkie buddies would tell me, "This unrated guy, Tschborekin, in Kiev he used to be Tschketchnikoff, you remember, the Champion of Ukrain from 1973 till last year. Is good to see him again." Meanwhile, in the USofA he was just another lucky amateur! That scene had me so depressed I wandered into a backroom of the Gigantic Hotel (I think it was the Pennsylvania opposite Penn Station, redubbed the Pensa by some lawyers). It was nice and quiet and cool and totally dark. I'd intended to brood under a stored grand piano till the next round. After a while I heard footsteps shuffling in and some guy was sitting on the other side of the instrument with his young son. The kid was sobbing and the father, who must have been the same age I was, gave the kid a pep talk . . . it's only a stupid game, don't worry about it., etc., prop yourself up, dust yourself off and start all over again! sort of thing. Then he said, "Now come on, let's go get a little lunch!" and he'd cheered me up so much I started getting up to go with them. There was a middleaged guy who used to play in those things, a really horrible and hopeless patzer but he loved pushing the pieces and hitting his clock, I think he even enjoyed tipping his king at the end of nearly every game. He was embarrassed about going home empty handed every weekend so he became a closet industry for myself and a couple of Russian ringers; whenever we won plaques or trophies we'd sell them to this lunatic and go home laughing with those scheckles jingling in our pockets. God knows how many Top Expert trophy's and paraphanelia this lifelond C player's got in his den. Anyway, I'm glad they meant something to him and I know they made his family proud of him which is all that really matters. The Civ Games are eternal frustrations. I'm staring right now at Civ III and Call to Power II. Sid Meier and that bunch were dropped off at Roswell during the forties and there mission is to turn us all into drooling imbeciles muttering at electro beings stealing our technology. What I miss most about the old boardgame days isn't the games themselves, it's having been 12-13 and 14 and being able to say "screw it, you filthy cheater -- your mother wears combat boots -- last one to the field is the catcher!" Which explains why so many Major League Catchers also happen to be slow runners. BTW -- regarding chess programs. Another jewellbox I'm staring at is Chess Master 8000. I've found a good way of playing it. I set the level at drooling imbecile and consult the Encyclopedia of Chess Openings while playing it. The computer keeps calling me a lousy cheat and razzing that my late mother wore combat boots but I ignore the damn thing -- if it can have a built in data base I can consult some stupid books. Aside from which half the entries are nonsensical and sometimes even known blunders! I became totally disgusted with tournament chess when my specialty became defeating child prodiges with sophisticated tactics like staring at one part of the board while making plans for the other side. Face to face things like that work against twelve-year olds, even geniuses. After all, they only have brilliance going for them while I could draw on a lifetime arsenal of deception and dirty tricks. Then they pout at you afterwards, teary eyed and heartbroken and it makes you feel like a real creep. So, now I stay home and get my ass kicked by some logrythms and an electronic database. That's progress. [ February 15, 2003, 07:02 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
openheimer88 Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 jjhays wrote I would buy it for the simple fact I have been waiting for a COS2 since 1991... now lets see if any body in here remembers that little jewel from the early 90's This game is COS2, just too bad they did'nt give any credit to COS1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 Oppenheimer88 If you'd have read any entries other than your own agitating negativity you'd have seen plenty of postings about COS, a game many of us still like very much. You'd also have noticed that numerous recommendations for this game use COS as a reference point. If you knew anything at all about either game you'd realize that, other than the map, SC has very, very little in common with COS. Everything seems to be a ripoff with you. You have no constructive comments and I doubt very much you're for real. I've had my run-ins with people at this site but it was never in the vein of being a trouble maker. And you are obviously here to create trouble and screw things up for those who enjoy posting here and like the game and have real suggestions. You're either a shill for some rival or someone with nothing to say who says it poorly. In either case you're out to screw things up for the people who get some enjoyment out of this site. Hopefully you'll be out of here soon and the sooner they ban you the better. :mad: [ February 17, 2003, 03:18 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hueristic Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 Well said as usual Jersey I second the motion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaWolf_48 Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 Hay Jersey A while back you asked what other computer war games are good. I do recommend Talonsoft's West Front 2, and East Front 2. They have been out a few years now and you can get the whole thing for a steal. It's battalion size warfare, can be larger but it takes too long. Has lots of scenario's with game and at wargamer there's a lot more. There is also a Jap version, I don't care for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 Sir Jersey --- Nice takes. Way to keep these clowns in line. I'd chime in, but you have everything under control. I love SC, and..."Proud to be an American, because at least I know I'm free, I'll glady stand-up"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 Last reason to give to buy this game there is NOTHING on the market like it. It's one of the kind in modern time. there are not strategic/semi tactical wargames like this period long line of history in them though just this is it! and it rocks UPDATE IT and it will blow eardrums out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 Generals Hueristic and Rambo As Mr H would say, "Thanks for the good Werd, man!" I'm glad we all feel the same way about this, uh, gentlemen and even glader you guys came out and said it!. I'm in great company. [ February 17, 2003, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 SeaWolf Thanks for telling me about the East Front/West Front games. I did get them for a steal as combination packs on clearance last time the software made a zig when it should have zagged! You're right, they are great games and agreed that in the larger unit mode it all gets a bit unweildy. So far I've liked all the tactical games I've seen, though my true interest these days is strategy, as I suspect it is whit most SC players. Truth is there are really quite a few pretty good war games out there, tactical and strategic, with those old standby Civ insanities to fall back on. Truth also is I enjoy this website a lot more than actually playing any of them, but I'm sure that's been suspected already. [ February 17, 2003, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 Liam Yes, a really great reason and quite possibly the final one, as you say. We've all done our usual schtick and trasformed this thread into the usual spiral! Which is good, there's nothing more boring than a straight line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
openheimer88 Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 Hey Jersey, I'm not a trouble maker. If a person can't say their 2 cents in a forum then what's the point. You can get mad all you want but hey there is something called free speach which is still alive as far as I'm concerned. You rant and rave for paragraph upon paragraph. I say one sentence and you jump on me. And for the record I could list countless similarities of SC to COS beyond the map. My point is'nt to critize its similarity to COS since it's a great starting point. And what's with the trend of new wargames to have exact duplicate soundtracks from other games? Other genre's would never get away with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 Hey Oppenheimer88 Fine. If what you were really doing was voicing your opinion that's great and you're entitled to it. But it seemed not only to myself but obviously to others that your true agenda was to disrupt the forums and get as many padlocks as you could rack up. The relations between SC and COS are superficial; HQs & Army Groups, etcl, the things that are totally different far outnumber the similarities. There are literally hundreds of postings on this. It wasn't your opinion that got me, it was the recurring rip-off theme. I've even stated, as have others, that COS adapted to a late Windows format would have been great and if they'd corrected it's bugs and developed the game a bit further it would have been the best possible game available. But none of us ever insinuated that Hubert is a rip-off artist nor do any of us believe it. As far as I'm concerned you're free to state your opinions and if you choose to do it with brevity that's even better as apparently befits it's content. Meanwhile I'll rant along as I've always done. If you truly aren't a trouble maker or a schill or a disrupter, etc., you have my aplogies Hopefully we'll proceed on more amiable terms. [ February 17, 2003, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Boggs Posted February 17, 2003 Share Posted February 17, 2003 Originally posted by openheimer88: I'm not a trouble maker. You rant and rave for paragraph upon paragraph. I say one sentence and you jump on me. He smells like General Forum material. he obviously has all the other qualifications: 1. Irritating 2. No original thoughts 3. Troll-Like in Intelligence 4. Makes new friends easily 5. WANTS to be jumped on 6. Doesn't have a clue Yep, he just might make it over there with a little polish. [ February 17, 2003, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Jim Boggs ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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