Availability -- Concerns for a Slippery Fish

[Panzer Leader]

You know, every serious wargame includes rules for Weapons availability, and in a WW2 genre, it seems more important than most. Weapons systems became outdated and were replaced at a faster pace than in any time in history, before or since.

At first it seems like a pretty easy thing to add to a game. You simply follow history, and include a new piece of equipment either when it begins productoin or (and more difficult to determine) when it first sees action.

These things are all well and good and a scientific approach (which BTS has boatloads of) will bring nearly perfect results. But there is another side of availability that must be tackled, and as a lover of the "Blitzkrieg" era, one that is of most concern to me:

When will older units become UN-available?

I don't think a PzIVD evewr fired a shot at a Sherman in Normandy (though they did in Africa) but at the same time, PzIIF's were still being used by units in Norway up until the end.

How will BTS determine when a unit is DE-commissioned, when it is no longer available for service, when you WILL NOT be able to purchase one in a quickbattle or place one in a scenario.

Will the unit availability just keep getting longer and longer until by Spring of '45 you have six pages of tanks to choose from? Or will you be unable to get a PzIVD the moment a IVF comes out?

What about the T34/75? Production was discontinued when the /85 came out, but were all the 75s pulled out of line or were there a few still rolling along into Berlin?

I love the old stuff, especially there armoured cars and half-tracks. I would use a Sdkfz 222 in CMBO if I could, just 'cause they're so damn cool. I've also heard that there actually were a few left in Bat. HQ units and various other postings. It is understandable that BTS left them out (to use an example) for CMBO, since they were rare and truly under-gunned for the time frame, but for CMBB they will have to be included, so will they be available for the whole time?

This is one of the technical aspects of the game that I am most interested in. I want my old warhounds to keep kicking till the end!

[Slapdragon]

By Unit TO and Es and by Battle AARs.

[Panzer Leader]

Thank you Slappy for the succinct seven word answer --and even within a single minute of my post, wow!

However, I'm sure that even you must admit that there is more to it than that. Did an AAR exist for every engagement ever fought? Are they chronicled? Does BTS have the complete file?

As an aside, I have wet dreams about the library BTS must have acquired for research. Man, my bookshelf seems pretty skimpy indeed when I think of all the stuff they have.

But seriously, even TO&E's are notorious in listing equipment in a general way, rarely differentiating between certain models of equipment. Not only that, but many units would keep outdated equipment (not to mention "acquired" stuff, both enemy and friendly) and I doubt they bothered to list every single item they had, though I have not seen a lot of the records. What I have seen is very skimpy and generalized.

These two things are definitely a basis from which to start, but even if you took that route, how would you implement the feature. Look for the last recorded usage of every single vehicle, gun, etc. and use that as the date for when it bcomes unavailable?

Hell, there were Security forces in the rear areas that used PzIs, Chars, and even Panhard armoured cars. I bet there are plenty of garrison units that had outdated equipment, so by this reasoning, no vehicle will EVER become unavailable, right?

Here is an example, the Ferdinand. First manufactured in...(checking)in April 43, first saw service in June. The surviving units were pulled out late (October?) re-equipped and sent back to the line in 44. When was the last one destroyed, I couldn't find that out, sometime in Italy I think.

Anyhow, how would you go about making the availability for this one, a VERY WELL KNOW AND DOCUMENTED AFV? It's not so easy is it? Now, let's take a look at the PzIVD. Not so popular, and the only thing I see is my Chamberlain that says "...the last Ds were phased out by attrition in early '44" Where, Russia, Norway, Italy, or some village in Poland?

All I'm saying is that what seems so simple (especially to Slapdragon) is actually a difficult thing to portray in the game, and to do it with accuracy requires a vast amount of work and research. I'm sure BTS is up to the task, but it is interesting to ponder the finer points of what the yare doing.

...Especially when you add one more facet into availabilty: area of operations...

[offtaskagain]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

What about the T34/75? Production was discontinued when the /85 came out, but were all the 75s pulled out of line or were there a few still rolling along into Berlin?

I love the old stuff, especially there armoured cars and half-tracks. I would use a Sdkfz 222 in CMBO if I could, just 'cause they're so damn cool. I've also heard that there actually were a few left in Bat. HQ units and various other postings. It is understandable that BTS left them out (to use an example) for CMBO, since they were rare and truly under-gunned for the time frame, but for CMBB they will have to be included, so will they be available for the whole time?

This is one of the technical aspects of the game that I am most interested in. I want my old warhounds to keep kicking till the end!<hr></blockquote>

There were still plenty of T-34/76s still around for the assault on Berlin. I believe several hundred 222s made it to the end as well. I'm sure there plenty of the 8-wheeled 232s still around as well. I've often wished for their inclusion in CM as well.

[Slapdragon]

Well, here is the trick. Unless you can find proof a vehicle existed, was used, was common enough to warrant the effort needed to code and model, and had some effect one some battle then you don't need to prove the negative (which is impossible as you point out) but simply can assume it did not exist, and move on (unless you find data that it did exist later and was used).

So, the record show the German captured a large number of French tanks in 1940. But did they use any of them in the West Front. Well, we find an AAR that mentions the H-39, then find some TO and Es, then soeme oral accounts, and some ammo supply logs, and captured numbers by allies, and eventually you can justify including the tank into your game.

But take the Char - B. Nope, it did not show up in Normandy, but low and behold a few fought in Holland. Those few however don't make it into the game because they were not available across the entire front (this will change in CM:BB) and they would require a lot of work for little historical gain. Of course the Hetzer Flame Panzer made it, but it's 3D drawing was essentially in place, easy to add it.

So you look for the time when evidence of its existence falls off. The Panzer 111 did not make much of a showing in the West. Maybe a couple went to the front. So you don't add it. If an AAR was found though that had a great number trundling into battle at a late date then you would have toi stop and say is this thing worth my time to add to the game.

[Slapdragon]

Here is something else to think about. The existence of a thing does not equate to the need to model the thing for the game to be accurate within the limitations of technology, playability, and historical accuracy. Let me give some examples:

German ground soldiers were, as a post war study showed, not fed enough vitamin A and suffered from vision problems. However, while tehse vision problems may have affected pilots some (except they got plenty of A), it apparently was not a big deal by that stage of the war, especially since both sides where scraping the manpower barrell by that point of the war and most infantry and armor tasks relied less on eye sight and more on mental reflexes.

Several hundred POA flame throwers where sent to Europe at the end of 1944. They were never issued though.

A single 105mm armed tank destroyer was sent to Europe based on the M18 hull according to a shipping manifest. It was promptly returned to the United States never having been unshipped.

In some cases there are vehicles missing that are regretable, the M35 and M16 for the US, the flame Char-B for the Germans, but their loss to the game is because of the limitations of BTS small staff, and in reality they are not as serious as not modelling the late model Panthers, or the HVSS Shermans.

[Jarmo]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

When will older units become UN-available?

<hr></blockquote>

Have you noticed that older tanks become unavailable in CMBO too? You can't get a Hotchkiss or Centaur in later date fights. And I'm willing to bet there's research behind the dates the unavailability kicks in.

[Brian]

An interesting question. When was the last Panzer III declared obsolete? Anybody care to hazard a guess?

"1960" according to http://www.royhaaland.net/norway/tank/index.html .

Not a bad innings, I think. For the Germans, old tanks usually didn't get much of a chance to retire. For most combatants though, older AFV's tended to be allocated to second-rate forces/theatres (M3 Grant/Lees were found to be more than adequate for the British in Burma, while the Mathilda II was used in the SW Pacific) or into other roles (OP tanks, command tanks, Centaur CS tanks) or training.

AAR unfortunately only tell part of the story. OrBats a bit more but equipment strengths are the key in this situation. The 95mm Infantry Howitzer is an excellent case in point.

[Mattias]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

[QB]Here is an example, the Ferdinand. First manufactured in...(checking)in April 43, first saw service in June. The surviving units were pulled out late (October?) re-equipped and sent back to the line in 44. When was the last one destroyed, I couldn't find that out, sometime in Italy I think.[QB]<hr></blockquote>

Just a detail of course, but..

The last records of Ferdinands in action are dated late April 1945. The place, south of Berlin.

M.