Horses in CM2?

[Gremlin]

I know there have been some rather bitter debates--and when are they not around here --about horses in CM. But, has there been any word on their inclusion in CM2? Apparently the Germans used about 750,000 of them in arty and supply units in Russia (which may or may not be relevant to CM2's scale), and the Russians had a cavalry of around 200,000 (which would).

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[Guest Germanboy]

Originally posted by Gremlin:

I know there have been some rather bitter debates--and when are they not around here --about horses in CM. But, has there been any word on their inclusion in CM2? Apparently the Germans used about 750,000 of them in arty and supply units in Russia (which may or may not be relevant to CM2's scale), and the Russians had a cavalry of around 200,000 (which would).

The Germans had (and used) cavalry in Russia too (Source: Lucas, War on the Eastern Front). My guess would be that it will depend on the coding trouble Charles will have with them - horses panick, trucks don't. Would be interesting for sure, but I would not hold my breath.

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[Bruno Weiss]

Hehehe, just licking me chops, waiting, see where this goes a little bit...

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"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[Gremlin]

Speaking of licking your chops, apparently the Germans resorted to eating a lot of their dead horses during the winter, as the troops were low on food.

Anyway, I imagine another difficulty with the inclusion of horses would be a somewhat realistic-looking model and set of animations for them. Still, horses would apparently be an historically accurate and important feature in a game with CM2's setting.

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[This message has been edited by Gremlin (edited 02-01-2001).]

[Michael Dorosh]

Horses in infantry units were no different from the 15 cwt trucks in CM1. You don't see them on the map, as they carry platoon stores like greatcoats, blankets, AA sights for the LMGs, etc. I don't know what the Germans called it, but Commonwealth battalions left their platoon trucks in Echelon.

You also don't see artillery tractors in CM1 either - they didn't go near the front lines (in normal situations).

WW II infantry invariably walked to contact, or rode on tanks. Horses and trucks stayed as far away from the front as they could. Again, in normal situations.

[Guest Germanboy]

Originally posted by Gremlin:

Still, horses would apparently be an historically accurate and important feature in a game with CM2's setting.

Apparently German horses died at -4C.

Not good for Russia. While I agree they would be accurate, I am not sure about their importance. Some brigades on the German side and a few divisions on the Soviet side in a total of hundreds of divisions does not seem significant to me. It would be cool, no doubt, but may just be a lot more trouble then it is worth. How many weeks coding is it worth? I don't know, but I am sure that Steve and Charles have to make some hard choices as it is. Wait and see.

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[Phoenix]

Steve said -

Cavlary on the Eastern Front is a tough one for us. As Los pointed out, they were used fairly frequently in terms of number of times in battle. Overall, they weren't that common. Or more exactly, there are far more situations to simulate that did not involve cavalry forces than did. And for that reason mounted cavalry (as opposed to dismounted) is on the back burner. There is a LOT to do for the Eastern Front, and in the Big Picture™ mounted cavalry is down on the list of important things to do.

[Guest Rommel22]

Yes, but what about cavalry formations. The Soviets used them extensivly 41-42.

The Stalingrad encirclement, the Soviets had quite a few Cavalry brigades, I think 22 cavalry brigades (might be lower than 22). So they would need to be included for historical accuracy, but we can do without them, somehow.

The other countries used cavalry too, Romania, Hungary (Hussar) etc. So horses were used in attacks and would need to be included, but graphicly I don't know if it's possible. Will have to wait and see.

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Rommel22's War Diarys site.

http://rommel22diarys.homestead.com/MyPage1~ns4.html

"I saw 5 Germans walking down the side of the road, so I followed them for a few yard to get closer. Then I shot them! Later that day I found out the war has been over for a few weeks." - someone

[Gremlin]

Michael, actually the Germans do have an arty tractor in Combat Mission

As noted above, we're talking not just about horses hauling field guns, but soldiers who rode horses into battle.

Phoenix, thx for the quote from Steve.

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[Bruno Weiss]

No really, 750,000, give or take a few thousand. Coincedental figure.

Well I've read stories of horses being used as snipers, and there's that famous video of the mare and stallion who went together and bought a truck so they wouldn't have to pull a cart. I think just before the war was over 100,000 horses were given the Knights Cross with chive cluster and steak knives.

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"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[Bruno Weiss]

Actaully I think it a splendid idea, one I brought up a while back, along with a bunch of others, and as Phoenix cited, Steve pretty much put the Kabosh on it. My thinking was once the coding was thought through and done, then it was just a hop, skip, and a jump, from there to 19th Century warfare. But alas, CM2 first!

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"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 02-01-2001).]

[ParaBellum]

On 17th November 1941 the German 106th Inf.Div., 70 km NW of Moscow waited for the attack signal.

Suddenly grey figures appeared through the forest in front of the 106th positions. Cavalry! The 44th Mongolian Cavalry division attacked the German positions. The 107th Art.Reg. opened fire, together with MGs and mortars.

After the first cavalry regiment was cut down in minutes, the second regiment attacked, only to meet the same fate.

German casualties: zero.

Russian casualties: 2000+

I doubt if I would order a cavalry charge...

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Klotzen, nicht kleckern!

[Bruno Weiss]

I hear Commissar coming...

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"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[Bruno Weiss]

delete - double post

[This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 02-01-2001).]

[Guest Rommel22]

Ok, but other times cavalry was effective as hell if used properly.

The same thing would of happened to regular infantry, you charge and bam, they get chopped to pices. Other times the cavalry preformed well.

At Moscow 41, Siberian cavalry divsion, they had horses which were use to extreme cold weather. So the soviets used them. Not sure the exact number of cavalry brigades or division were there, but quite a few I think.

The Soviets also used cavalry to raid German supply lines in, but that is more pertisan aspect and not sure if thats going to be modelled.

There was also an incident, well battle where a Hungarian Cavalry division charged Soviet possitions and was very succesfull in fir stalling an attack. It happened after the encirclement of Stalingrad.

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Rommel22's War Diarys site.

http://rommel22diarys.homestead.com/MyPage1~ns4.html

"I saw 5 Germans walking down the side of the road, so I followed them for a few yard to get closer. Then I shot them! Later that day I found out the war has been over for a few weeks." - someone

[ParaBellum]

Anybody remembers the b&w movie "Charge of the light brigade"? With Errol Flynn IIRC.

OK, it´s about the crimean war (spelled right?), so it´s a little bit off topic...

But still got some nice "horse-scenes".

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Klotzen, nicht kleckern!

[The Commissar]

Originally posted by Bruno Weiss:

I hear Commissar coming...

LOL, you know me well Bruno

Personally, I feel the Cossaks played some crucial roles in battles in the early East Front. Although horses are not commonly modeled in WW2 war games, and are not glorified in historical documentaries as are Armored divisions, they did play a role.

Para Bellum,

You misunderstand the situation and the use of the horse. Cossaks were some crazy muthas (you'd have to be one to charge a a machine gun mounted on a horse and armed with a sabre!), but they werent suicidal. Cossaks would usually work in accordance with infantry and armor, and on harassing missions, en league with partisan divisions.

I'd love to see a battle in CM2 where an rear line German collumn advancing to the main lines is intercepted by partisans and Cossaks. Would be some hard fighting there, I tell you what

I would love to see the horse modeled, but as many said, its not simple. However, Steve saying "it's on the bottom of the list" doesnt meant "it's out so dont even bugger us!"

Here's hoping, anyway.

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[The Commissar]

I searched om google.com about cavalry use in WW2, and among many useless Armor links, found this:

"THE KORSUN SLAUGHTER

(USSR February 16/17, 1944) During a violent blizzard on the night of Feb.16, five divisions of General Hube's 8th Army, including the 5th SS Division 'Viking' and the Belgian Volunteer Brigade 'Wallonie', made a last desperate bid to break out of the Russian encirclement around the towns of Korsun and Shandrerovka in the lower Dnieper west of Kiev. At 4am, forming up in two columns of around 14,000 each, they flocked into two parallel ravines in the surrounding countryside, and where the two ravines met, the troops then emerged into open country and headed out towards Lysyanka. There, disaster struck as the Soviet troops, under General Konev, were waiting. Soon after 6am, the slaughter began. Soviet tanks drove into the German columns crushing hundreds under their tracks. Fleeing in panic, the troops were then confronted by units of Cossack cavalry who started hacking them to pieces with their sabres, hands were lopped off of those who approached with their arms raised in surrender. There was no time to take prisoners and the carnage continued till it was all over. In the short space of three hours, over 20,000 German soldiers lay dead. Another 8,000, who had fled the scene, were rounded up during the next few days and taken prisoner."

Source: http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres.html

This piece backs up my previous statement of Cossaks mounted troops being used in conjunction with armor and infantry. Ill try to find more. Wish I had a good book or two on the subject - any of you Grogs got any suggestions?

Here's a clip from this webpage: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~rarjet/redcav/sovcav.html

"Between 1939 and 1941, the Red army drastically reduced its reliance on cavalry due to aviation's devastating effect on cavalry and the ability of airplanes to due many jobs traditionally performed by horsemen. In WWII, Budennyi commanded all Soviet mounted troops, and found new uses for horse cavalry. Although they would still make occasional mounted attacks on disorganized or unprepared troops, the tactics usually involved riding horses to a pre-chosen battle line, then dismounting and fighting as infantry. Also, to avoid detection and attack by aircraft, the cavalry moved mainly at night or in bad weather, and avoided known roadways."

This gives us some ideas. Horses handled like living vehicles (which they are, sorta). Use them to maneuver around an enemy position quickly, dismount, and fight as Inf.

I could see some stats applied along these lines:

*DISCLAIMER*

The following is purely opinion and SUGGESTIONS. I realize Charles and Steve are busy guys with a game to produce, so if they have no time, I accept this. Just going to have to wait till CMII

- Cavalry would not bog down (seeing as horses dont have tracks and Cossaks are "born in the saddle").

- Hitting mounted troops would be easier then regular infantry because of the size of the horse.

- In rough terrain, there would be a chance of horses breaking their feet, thus rendering some useless. A virtual "roll of the dice" factored by the experience of the unit would determine if such casualties are suffered.

- When men dismount the horses, the player cannot command them, since they have no driver. Thus, "park" your horses somewhere safe

- Horses panick easier under heavy fire, getting hit more and all.

Again, all my opinion. Sorry for the long rant!

Cheers!

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[This message has been edited by The Commissar (edited 02-01-2001).]

[Capt Canuck]

You cannot forget about the Italians!

On August 24 the Italian Savoia Cavalry made up of 600 men mounted a counter attack on the Isbuschenski steppe. The Russian's comprised of 2,000 men with mortar and artillery support. One squadron attacked head on, while the other came behind the enemy lines on horseback and possessing only sabers. They completely catch the Soviets by surprise and overrun the Russian position. This last calvary attack of World War II resulted in the destruction of 2 Soviet battalions, another battalion forced to withdraw and the netting of 500 POW's, 4 large artillery pieces, 10 Mortars, and 50 machine guns.

Source- http://www.angelfire.com/ok3/Italy/

Forza Italia!

David

[The Commissar]

Capt. Canuck,

Yub, that battle is largely believed to be the "last cavalry charge". While this could be true on the Cav only, unsuported large scale charge, its not the last use of Cavalry.

Cossaks continued their operations, but were usually present in smaller numbers.

If anyone else has any more stories of battles containing horses as fighting units, pls post them. Maybe this cause isnt lost yet

Cheers!

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[The Commissar]

"Bumpety-Bump-Bump!"

- Trashcan Man, "The Stand"

[Guest Big Time Software]

The Commisar quoted the following:

Although they would still make occasional mounted attacks on disorganized or unprepared troops, the tactics usually involved riding horses to a pre-chosen battle line, then dismounting and fighting as infantry. Also, to avoid detection and attack by aircraft, the cavalry moved mainly at night or in bad weather, and avoided known roadways.

Very true. When used in this capacity, especially in the woods or swamps, they were very effective. As dismounted infantry they worked well too. But as was found out early on, straight out 19th century cavalry charges were mostly suicidal.

Combat Mission is just not set up for horse. There would need to be special TacAI just for them, and that would be pretty tough to do. The modeling of the horses, graphically, would be a big undertaking. Remember, we have to program in behavior patterns. Legs don't inherently know they should stick to the torso and foot We would also have to come up with some sort of way to simulate mounts being shot out from under otherwise intact riders. With a horse "squad" unit and a rider squad unit, that would be very tough.

Because of these and a few other reasons, no horses for the Eastern Front. As the quote of mine posted above says very well, we understand that they do have a place on the Eastern Front, but it is simply too small for the effort needed to simulate them. Therefore, no dice.

Steve

[Skott Karlsson]

How about the Polish Cavalry units of 1939? Word is that they actually charged German tanks. Steel Panthers modeled them in some of their battles. Granted SP was an entirely different type of game.

~Skott~

[patboivin]

In ASL there were horses. Heck, there were motorcycles, bicycles and sidecars as well. Not to mention almost every variant out there for the vehicles, including Panzer IIIs. (Where did the Panzer IIIs go?! There is a PzKpfw IIL, but no PzKpfw IIIs.) There were multiple types of boats; landing vehicles; rocket launchers; different types of planes; trenches; partisans; etc. etc.

Why were all these units included in ASL? Because they were part of the scope of the game. It is also why so many grognards out there played the game. It had a lot of flexibility, it was open-ended, it was fun. It also became the standard, unlike all those SPI games.

Somehow a lot of things are not part of the scope of CM.

If it's because it's too much work to code, OK. But I find it annoying when people come up with false excuses to explain why certain things are not in the game. Granted, it's a lot harder to code a new type of unit than it was for the ASL people to add new units to their game: Take a pair of scissors, cut up a new set of counters, and play-test; make up rules as you go along. So no, CM won't include everything that was in ASL; there is much more work that has to be done in the background to produce new units.

To be historically accurate, horses have to be included, there's no way around it. We aren't used to seeing horses now, because there are cars everywhere. But in the 1940s in Europe most people used horses and bicycles, not cars. Maybe the local physician owned a car, and the maire. Not too many others. Perhaps the upper class. Remember there really was no middle-class back then. Do you think many european farmers in the 40's had tractors? Let's get real.

It was a major innovation on the part of the Germans in the late 30s to put so much emphasis on armour and vehicles. It gave them a definite advantage at the beginning of the war. But the other countries caught up, and by the mid 40s they were ready to produce trucks and other vehicles by the thousands. That was one of the effects of world war II: It accelerated the shift toward gasoline-powered transportation.

I realize ASL was a massive undertaking, and was in development for a decade or more. BTS has done an excellent job for CM1, but in my estimation it's not finished by any means, it's more like a work in progress. Gradually I expect they will "fill out" all the corners they left empty, because they were working on producing something that would satisfy most people.

Why do I think they will "fill out" the missing bits? Because grognards are a tough audience. Also because BTS will be able to produce expansion packs, which could very well pay for themselves.

My $0.02 on this never-ending topic.

[Gremlin]

I too understand that BTS doesn't have unlimited time and money, but I don't see what the criterion is for inclusion of something in CM2: visuals get (relatively) short shrift for reasons BTS has explained elsewhere, but so too do historically important "grog-oriented" features, at least to an extent.

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