COMBAT MISSIONS: Armour Tactics - Jadgpanzer IV

[Manx]

Please share your thoughts on the tactical usage and overall strength's and weaknesses of this AFV.

btw - The M7 Priest "survey" carried out a few weeks ago has finally been published on the site. I've only just had chance to get the page up, mainly due to being kept busy sorting out the site move and trying to keep up with the speed that Tiger has been submitting Mods to the site.

In advance - Thanks very much!.

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COMBAT MISSIONS - Resources For Combat Mission

[jgdpzr]

At last you get to my favorite AFV of the war.

Simply put, the Jagdpanzer IV is an outstanding ambush vehicle. Certainly the Hetzer is cheaper, and the Jagdpanther has a better gun. But, in my book, the JPzr IV strikes a perfect balance between the two. The Lang, in particular, with its additional frontal armor and L70, is a match for virtually any tank or TD the western allies can bring to the table.

Obviously, the vehicle is not without its drawbacks. The lack of a turret brings along its attendant problems. The side and rear armor are very vulnerable (but not as ridiculously thin as the Hetzer's). Mobility is not great (not sure if CM models the problems that plagued the poorly balanced Lang, however), and the vehicle suffers in the anti-infantry role. Finally, the vehicle is out of its element in most offensive manuevers.

These shortcomings aside, I find the vehicle to be extremely valuable in protecting a flank (as long as its flanks are protected) and at overwatch of longe lines of fire. Heck, it is even effective as a centerpiece if the flanks are very securely protected. That frontal armor, long range hitting power (particularly the Lang), and small sillouhette (especially when hull-down) make for a wicked combination. Some may argue that the Lang is somewhat pricey, but I have no problems justifying the opportunity costs, particularly when fighting a defensive battle.

My final thought and this is as subjective as possible: I just love the way it looks. That wide, low frontal aspect is beautiful baby!

[illo]

JPz-IV is one of the best TDs in CM IMHO. It comes near invincible when placed hull down in good slope (front armor goes almost horizontal ) Look position in defence so that JPzIVs flanks are covered by higher ground, forest or building(s) but ensure that it has broad LOS forward. Generally all reverse slopes in rear with good visibity suit quite well. I deploy JPz-IV in pairs. Two barrels firing enemy at once gives a big advantage.

In attack I use it same way to cover my advancing PzKw-IVs and PzKw-Vs. Maybe i separate pairs to get more LOS cover.

Its front armor isnt allways enough on level ground...slopes are must to make it über. Dont get it too close to enemy. Front becomes vulnerable and you easily expose your thin side armor + JPzIV is not the best infantry killer.

Regular 75L48 has good punch and is enough most of the time. Longer 75L70 is more accurate and stops even heaviest allied armor with ease.

Sorry my bad english

[Chupacabra]

Park hull down. Wait. Shoot. Move. Repeat.

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Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super

[Guest Pillar]

I would ask any player considering the vehicle, how many AT guns can you buy in exchange for a JagdPanzer IV?

How many Panzerschrecks?

This puts it's strength in context and forces the player to really think about how useful this machine is going to be given the terrain... Thinking in terms of opportunity cost of course.

It's a good AFV for what it does best, open terrain AT defense.

[Manx]

Anymore comments?

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COMBAT MISSIONS - Resources For Combat Mission

[Pascal DI FOLCO]

Originally posted by Chupacabra:

Park hull down. Wait. Shoot. Move. Repeat.

Oh yeees, this way in a PBEM game I toasted 3 Churchills with my JPzIV, HD behind a wall, it only suffered a small scratch on the hull from one ricocheting 75 shell !

[JoePrivate]

JgPvIV and PvIV/70

Role

Tank Hunter/Infantry Support

Pros

They have a good price/performance ratio versus most other German AFVs, especially the JgPzIV. Their hard hitting guns and sloped armour/low silhouette make them very deadly on the battlefield. The JgPzIV has low ground pressure and a good ammo loadout, much better in both counts than the StugIII.

Cons

They are both turretless and only have one MG with low ammo. The PzIV/70 is slow and has a high ground pressure.

Use

As others have said the obvious choice is to use them as a mobile AT weapon in defense/ambush. When HD they can usually only be defeated by tungsten from the front. I regularly use them in the infantry support role when needed. As well, when attacking or in a meeting engagement, I will use a JgPzIV and MkIV combo, with the JgPzIVs leading the MkIVs. Even when not HD most Allied guns will not penetrate the sloped armour of the JgPzIV, having them out front means they will be engaged first, allowing the MkIVs time and freedom to effectively engage themselves without getting KO'd early.

[Juardis]

Well, I'm playing a 7500 point custom QB against someone who decided that he'd buy as many damned hetzers and Jpz IVs as possible. My armor is virtually gone due mainly to his Jadgpanzers. I did manage to kill about 3 of his 15 or so JPz with my Sherman 76s. So I was then left with 2 battalions worth of infantry to attack his one battalion + armor. The hetzers were no problem disposing. The damned Jadgpanzers are. Their HE packs a wallop, zooks rarely kill them with a frontal shot, and they spot very well considering they're turretless (one of my biggest beefs). This battle would be over by now if my opponent knew what the hell he was doing, but as it is, my infantry keeps pushing forward, his JPz's keep retreating. We're 45 turns into a 75 turn battle and I've killed about 9 of his JPz, 3 with my tanks, 1 by 60mm mortar, 2 by zook shots in the flanks, 3 by arty.

So I'd say that the lack of relative spotting has made these monsters more dangerous than they probably were in real life. I mean, a buttoned, turretless vehicle able to spot an AT team through the fog at 90 degrees and 400m is ridiculous. But relative spotting makes it so. All they have to do then is rotate and fire.

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Jeff Abbott

[Guest Rommel22]

Great AFV

I used it once, and had bad luck with. Well I didn't secure my flanks, my opponent had 2 Cromwell's and a AC. I knocked out one of his Cromwell's and the AC, but the Cromwell's are FAST. I had no inf or any units on my flanks and th Cromwell went around my right flank right behind my JagdPZ IV. I sent a shreck and 2 battered inf. squads to kill it since the JagdPZ will need help.

Too late though, BAM thing gets killed from the rear, BUT the next turn a shreck takes the SUCKER out.

My experience with the thing.

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http://rommel22diarys.homestead.com/MyPage1~ns4.html

"I saw 5 Germans walking down the side of the road, so I followed them for a few yard to get closer. Then I shot them! Later that day I found out the war has been over for a few weeks." - someone

[Henri]

Just yesterday, in a TCPIP game, I had a JdPzIV defending at 500 m against a advancing Cromwell and a Comet.The JdPz was buttoned and it had taken a casualty from a lucky shot by infantry a mile away, and its first shot missed the Cromwell, which was in front. The Comet put its first shot through the front armor of the JdPz.

Now I was convinced by the numbers that there was no way that a Comet can kill a JdPzIV through the front armor, because its gun can penetrate only less than 5 cm than the effective armor value of the JdPz. My opponent said that the cursor indicated a 50% probability of penetration with a sure kill.The kill indicated a penetration through "the front superstructure", and not the thinner lower hull. In addition, the JdPz was on a slight incline towards the rear, increasing the armor angle.

Whaddahell is going on? Seems to me that there is no way that a Comet could kill a JdPz through the front armor on the first shot with a 50% probability.Or did I miss something?

Henri

[Lordfluffers]

The JgdPz IV is a superlative fighting vehicle. Well armoured and armed with a low profile it is a sublime tank killer. Although extremely hard to knock out head on, the JgdPz IV's biggest problem is its vulnerability to being flanked. In groups or supported by AT ordnance on the flanks, it is a superior AFV, especially if it is able to achieve hull-down status facing a target. The JgdPz Iv is Relatively cheap, more effective and durable than a Hetzer,and, in my opinion, a better bet than a JagdPanther which has a higher profile and tends to attract a lot of attention. The JgdPz IV is a little underrated and this is a strong advantage.

[Warmaker]

Originally posted by Pillar:

I would ask any player considering the vehicle, how many AT guns can you buy in exchange for a JagdPanzer IV?

How many Panzerschrecks?

This puts it's strength in context and forces the player to really think about how useful this machine is going to be given the terrain... Thinking in terms of opportunity cost of course.

It's a good AFV for what it does best, open terrain AT defense.

In response to your post Pillar: For the cost of one regular Jagdpanzer you can probaly buy 2, maybe 3 regular 75mm ATGs or maybe 5 Panzerschrecks if I remember correctly. I would still take the Jagdpanzer in almost all situations other than heavily forested maps. Why? Nicely armored w/ slopes and an excellent gun. The armor alone makes it much less susceptible to suppression to ATGs, whereas once they start receiving fire can be easily suppressed resulting in inaccurate shots. Also the JgPz gives something else that ATGs simply CANNOT provide: Mobility. Example, all the Allied soda cans have been ripped open and your infantry are in need of some sort of support. Move the JgPz to do this while a ATG requires a vehicle to move around in good time. Add to this the time it takes to mount/dismount it. Panzerschrecks are quite nice for a purely defensive role for your infantry (concealment for ambushes esp.). But again, on the attack/counterattack or in infantry support they cannot provide any. Yeah the JgPz is lousy in the anti-infantry role but at least it's got a MG and a few HE rounds for support. The presence of armor in a firefight alone adds a big dimension. Besides, I'm starting to prefer the StuGs and Jagdpanzers over the Jagdpanther. I have extremely bad luck with the supposedly excellent Jagdpanther.

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"Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima

[jgdpzr]

Warmaker,

I just wanted to echo your developing sentiments toward the Jagdpanther. I have had much greater success with the Pzr IV70 (V) than the Jagdpanther. I think it is mostly due to the larger size of the latter. When you get right down to it, I think the Jagdpanther is overkill (in terms of firepower) because the L70 is more than enough to deal with any Western allied tank.

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

The Jagdpanzer is my favorite true AFV as the Germans (with the Tiger I second). As "regular", it costs not much more than an infantry platoon (about the same as one of those and an MG or schreck). Unlike the cheaper Hezter, its side armor is enough to resist artillery fire and MGs, and it can carry infantry and teams. And unlike the StuG, its rival in cost and gun armament, its front armor is sloped enough to defeat short 75s regularly, and even better 76s with some added angle from falling ground or diagonal placement or both.

Compared to other sources of AT power, it is more expensive than PAK 40s or Marders, by not quite a factor of two. The PAKs are more easily concealed, and the Marders are just as mobile. But both are vunerable to artillery. The Hezter is only about 3/4ths the price and is fine frontally for AT work, but is paper thin on the sides and doesn't carry things, making it a poor counterattacking vehicle.

Turreted tanks are more expensive, with the Pz IV more poorly armored and the Tiger I and Panther, which are indeed more capable, cost 3/2 and 7/4 as much respectively. The Tiger I can be fully worth the cost sometimes. IMO, the Panther is a great tank but overpriced for CM, especially on a defender's odds "budget".

For infantry seeking anti-tank support cheaply, the PAKs and Marders can be better, but if your reason for buying armor is to negate enemy artillery strength and defeat enemy tank guns, then the extra cost is fully worth it.

Incidentally, the Jagdpanzer IV was also the standard TD in the last year of the war, equipping the anti-tank battalion of most German mobile divisions and portions of it in many leg infantry divisions (the latter also used a fair number of StuGs). It was not much rarer than the Pz IV and Panther.

I don't find the extra power of the long gun version worth it. In my experience, the standard gun is sufficient for all realistic Allied armor. If your opponents take Pershings, Sherman Jumbos, or the up-armored high Churchill types, you might want the better gun. Or you might settle for less gamey opponents using vehicles actually seen in the war in any numbers - LOL.

[Vanir]

Originally posted by Henri:

Whaddahell is going on? Seems to me that there is no way that a Comet could kill a JdPz through the front armor on the first shot with a 50% probability.Or did I miss something?

Sure it can. Look at the unit stats. The JdPz's armor is rated at 90% quality which puts its effective value at 54mm @ 50 degrees for the superstructure. The Comet's gun can penetrate 54mm of armor at 60 degree angle at 500m.

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You've never heard music until you've heard the bleating of a gut-shot cesspooler. -Mark IV

[Guest MantaRay]

I like it, but not as much as a STuG III. The Jag IV is fine when you need a good and cheap AT gun, but it does lack somewhat in anti-infantry capabilities.

It's low frame makes it attractive, but no turrent makes it a so-so buy because it is more expensive than the Stug.

But it can knock out most allied tanks, and the Stug can't at long ranges as easily.

They are best used just like you would use a ATG, with small width of firing lanes, and close to cover or in hull down positions. I also try to keep a MG42 around to suppress any sudden enemy inf rush, as to give it time to reverse and move to a safer spot.

I would rate it 2 ATG's and or 3 Inf-AT units. Not a bad choice, but a very limited role.

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