Victory Location control

[Peter Svensson]

Has anyone figured out how victory location control is really determined? I thought that if both sides have units within 80 meters of the VL when the game ends, the VL is neutral, i.e. shows a grey question-mark flag. During a recent PBEM, I discovered that this is not the case. A VL was awarded to my opponent, even though I had a squad within the 80 m radius. At first I thought it might have gone to him because he had more men there, but I've done some tests, and numerical superiority doesn't seem to be the factor. In fact, you can download a Quick Battle

www.speakeasy.org/~petersve/VL_Test_by_Peter_Svensson.cmb (passwords are blank for hotseat play)

where the German is awarded the VL even though there are more Americans by the VL, and they are closer too. In fact, to offset the single German squad, it takes an entire American platoon, plus a tank destroyer. And that doesn't make the VL American, just grey.

Is this a bug, or am I missing something?

[ 09-26-2001: Message edited by: Peter Svensson to include passwords ]

[ 09-26-2001: Message edited by: Peter Svensson ]

[Kingfish]

What you see is not necessarily who actually controls the VL, only that your forces believe they do. Unless you have overwhelming strength or the enemy is no where near are you assured of control.

I could be wrong here but I believe that there are other factors that determine VL control besides location and enemy strength. IIRC, I read where routed and broken units cannot control a VL, so morale might be a factor. Possibly ammo levels as well, but again I could be wrong on this.

Perhaps your single German squad didn't see all the Americans around the VL, but enough to know that control was in dispute. This might have given you the wrong impression on who actually controlled it. Only after the game ended did the true strengths of the nearby units became known, and a full platoon + Tank destroyer will win every time against a single squad.

Hope this helps

[Peter Svensson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kingfish:

What you see is not necessarily who actually controls the VL, only that your forces believe they do. Unless you have overwhelming strength or the enemy is no where near are you assured of control.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, Kingfish. Our PBEM, where I was flummoxed by the VL control, was only the start of my investigation.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

I could be wrong here but I believe that there are other factors that determine VL control besides location and enemy strength. IIRC, I read where routed and broken units cannot control a VL, so morale might be a factor. Possibly ammo levels as well, but again I could be wrong on this.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree - I've seen routing and broken units lose control of a VL. But that's not what happened in our PBEM, or in the QB I posted.

In the QB, I played both sides. Both sides think they have the VL in hand, but when the game ends, the VL is awarded to the numerically inferior Germans, for no apparent reason. There has been no fighting, so all squads are at full strength, in perfect morale and at full ammo.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

Perhaps your single German squad didn't see all the Americans around the VL, but enough to know that control was in dispute. This might have given you the wrong impression on who actually controlled it. Only after the game ended did the true strengths of the nearby units became known, and a full platoon + Tank destroyer will win every time against a single squad.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is possible, but seems unlikely, or at least, poor programming would have to figure into it. I did see all your troops. I didn't see the exact number of men, but when the scenario ended, the numbers of course turned out to be quite depleted. And what I saw a squads turned out to be teams.

And no, a full platoon plus a TD doesn't always win against a squad: in the QB the American needs that large a force merely to make the VL grey.

I've considered the possibility that the "Attacker" setting in the scenario somehow is a factor. In the QB, which is a meeting engagement, the U.S. is the attacker, and it's possible the Germans have an advantage in VL control determination. But in our PBEM, I was the defender, yet didn't get a similar deal.

I've also considered the possibility that it matters who is first to the VL, but that doesn't seem to fit either. In the QB, the U.S. is first to the flag, yet they can't even dispute it in the end unless they are reinforced.

[ 09-26-2001: Message edited by: Peter Svensson ]

[Kingfish]

Hello Peter,

Something to consider is the proximity of units to the VL when the game ends. IOW, are the German units closer as a group than the numerically superior Americans (who might be spread out)?

Perhaps the game calculates the proximity as a value (a German unit at 10 meters away is 100 points towards control of the VL, while a unit twice as far gets only half as many points).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I've considered the possibility that the "Attacker" setting in the scenario somehow is a factor. In the QB, which is a meeting engagement, the U.S. is the attacker, and it's possible the Germans have an advantage in VL control determination. But in our PBEM, I was the defender, yet didn't get a similar deal.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But I was defending the VL in question throughout the game. I had possesion from the start. Perhaps that does play a part.

[Peter Svensson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kingfish:

Something to consider is the proximity of units to the VL when the game ends. IOW, are the German units closer as a group than the numerically superior Americans (who might be spread out)?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, that can't be it. In the QB the Americans are the closest, yet lose the VL. In fact, they have a squad in the small building that flies the VL flag from its roof.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

But I was defending the VL in question throughout the game. I had possesion from the start. Perhaps that does play a part.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would make sense, but again, in the QB the Americans are first to the flag, yet can't make it theirs.

The only thing I've been able to conclude is that unless one side is completely alone (except for broken and routed enemies) within the 80 m radius of the VL, there is no telling which way the VL will go. It might go to the numerically superior force, or to the inferior, or be neutral. There has to be some hidden factor here, but I can't for the life of me figure out what.

[Leeo]

If you kill/rout/break the majority of the other guys troops, you're likely to win. Too much emphasis on the VL flags, particularly in QB's, can be detrimental to victory. It's hard to ignore them entirely, but I think the focus should be on killing the other guys troops. If they happen to be defending a VL, then the capture of the VL is the gravy on the taters.

[Peter Svensson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Leeo:

If you kill/rout/break the majority of the other guys troops, you're likely to win. Too much emphasis on the VL flags, particularly in QB's, can be detrimental to victory. It's hard to ignore them entirely, but I think the focus should be on killing the other guys troops. If they happen to be defending a VL, then the capture of the VL is the gravy on the taters.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True. Casualty ratios are usually much more important than VLs in determining victory. But we can't ignore the VLs either, because they simulate real-world orders to field commanders: seize this piece of ground. They give the battle direction, and while not the only or even the greatest factor in determining victory, they should be important.

[Kingfish]

A few more off the top of my head:

1) Are any of the units out of command?

2) Are any of the units out of LOS to the opposing side, or to the VL?

3) How far away are the Americans from their friendly map edge in relation to the Germans and their map edge?

[Holien]

If BTS can respond here on this as it would be good to know.

Kingfish finish work and get home and do that turn so we can see who controls what!!! (I am off to bed soon and what my nightly fix!!)

I am amazed by Peter's research and if true it would blow my views on flags and ownership.

H

[ 09-26-2001: Message edited by: Holien ]

[Kingfish]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Holien:

Kingfish finish work and get home and do that turn so we can see who controls what!!!

H<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kingfish has to first have dinner at his in-laws. Mmmmm, Gefelte fish and chopped liver (Insert puking smilie here).

Later on tonight I'll burn your armor, uh, I mean return your file.

[Holien]

Well with that delightful thought of you eating at your mother in laws I will go to bed satisfied that while I might get toasted you are getting your just deserts!!!

Good night and Bon Appetite.

I will view the destruction on the marrow...

H

[ 09-26-2001: Message edited by: Holien ]

[Peter Svensson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kingfish:

A few more off the top of my head:

1) Are any of the units out of command?

2) Are any of the units out of LOS to the opposing side, or to the VL?

3) How far away are the Americans from their friendly map edge in relation to the Germans and their map edge?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hej Kingfish,

Hope your dinner was good. Believe it or not, but I love chopped liver and gefilte fish, and I'm not even Jewish.

I now think I've found the secret factor in VL determination, but I'm not sure. I'm thinking of elevation.

It seems that if one side has units that are on a higher tile than the opposition's units, they count for a lot more, at least three times more, when determining who dominates the VL. This explains our PBEM game, were my guys were below yours. It explains the QB posted above, where the German squad is placed higher than the American platoon and so carries the flag. I noticed that if I moved the German squad closer to the VL and down to the same elevation as the Americans, the VL went from German to grey!

I tested this with another QB, which pretty much confirmed the result, but then I made up my own map, with exaggerated heights and valleys around a VL, and didn't get any height-related skewing.

I think I'm on the right track here, but there's probably another variable I'm missing.

[ 09-26-2001: Message edited by: Peter Svensson to update with new test, inconclusive results]

[ 09-27-2001: Message edited by: Peter Svensson ]

[aka_tom_w]

bump

[Puff the Magic Dragon]

After all I've read in this and another actual threat, I would appreciate when someone from BTS could intervene. I find it annoying that we know nothing for sure about this important issue.

BTS, please answer

[Juardis]

I've had the same question myself. I offer up 2 examples and possible explanations.

1. I had a company of men in the woods around the VL. My gamey bastard opponent waited until the last turn before moving a couple squads into the same wooded area. I had firm control of the flag, my company would've routed his squads, yet it was gray at the end of the game. He did that to both flags in the game and won because of it.

2. I had a HT sitting on top of a VL. It was shocked. My oppenent had a crew about 50m away. A crew mind you. At the end of the game, his crew controlled the flag. Bull****e!!!

Possible explanations:

Units unable to shoot cannot hold a flag (e.g., FOs and mortar teams without ammo). The flaw here is that if a mortar team were to lose their weapon, they would then turn into "crews" and have pistols. I think this is what happened with my shocked HT. He couldn't shoot so he couldn't control the flag. Now, if he'd had been KO'd, then the crew could've held the flag. Lose a 40 point HT to hold a 150 point? Sound's stupid, I know, but I've contemplated intentionally getting my shocked HTs KO'd just so I can use the crews (won't do it of course, but I've thought about it).

Another explanation is that who controls the VL is not so much numerical superiority, but maybe command radius of any units in the area. Squads not in C&C would have maybe a 50m radius. In C&C of a +2 command radius HQ might increase the 50m radius to 100m. You can easily test this during a setup. Put a mortar team or AT team a certain distance away from a flag and see what color it is. If it's gray, you're not close enough. Move it closer until it changes (you won't see it change unless you save the setup and open it again). Now put a HQ unit the same distance away and see what happens. I haven't tested this myself, but the hypothesis fits my observation.