Buttoned tanks and AT team spotting (again)

[Juardis]

This has been brought up in numerous threads in the past 6 months, but never on its own (at least not that I found in my 2 sec search of the forums). Therefore, I would like to officially use this thread to whine, cry, and moan over what I perceive as a grave injustice done to the poor saps that carry a zook, shreck, or piat. What am I talking about? Why the fact that they all seem to wear bright orange vests with neon signs overhead directing every asset in the area to target them. Oh, the unfairness and discrimination.

Now then, I can see why a tank would target an AT team (duh). But what I cannot figure out is how, in a group of infantry running through the fog with smoke all around and buttoned up Jadgpanzer IVs rotated 90 degrees, how in the 7734 my AT teams can be singled out and shot at. It is the single most exasperating action I've had to deal with in CM. It's bad enough (although good that the TAC AI does this), but it's bad enough that tanks rotate their hulls toward a threat now, be it infantry or armor. That means I have to hunt in pairs now. No problem, I can adapt. But what I cannot adapt to is the fact that they are continuously spotted. Couple easily spotted AT teams with rotating hulls and you wind up with dead AT teams.

I understand unbuttoned tanks can spot better than buttoned tanks. I understand that turretted vehicles had vision blocks located all around the circumference. You cannot tell me though that looking through vision blocks in the thick of battle that you can discern, with regularity, AT teams from any other infantry. In the game it's slightly easier because AT teams are only 2 member teams. But who is to say that 2 men from a squad couldn't be running across that field? Or who is to say that those 2 men you see are all that's left of a full strength squad? I gaurantee that if it were 2 grunts running that they would not draw the wrath of every tank, vehicle, MG nest, and squad within LOS.

And finally, just to get all my whines in, how in teh 7734 can buttoned turretless vehicles spot anything in their flanks or rear? Do they have vision slits located all around as well?

Thank for letting the whine breathe.

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Jeff Abbott

[Dittohead]

The supporting infantry have Nokia Cell phones and call the tankers and let them know what direction the the AT teams are approaching.

[Guest Michael emrys]

Originally posted by Juardis:

Therefore, I would like to officially use this thread to whine, cry, and moan over what I perceive as a grave injustice done to the poor saps that carry a zook, shreck, or piat.

Hm. Well, if it's as bad as you say (I myself have yet to experience this particular problem from either the giving or receiving end), you might just have a point.

On the other hand, you may also be partly the victim of your own faulty tactics. When I use zooks, I try to keep them out of the LOS of unfriendly types until they shoot. That means I either place them in good ambush locations and let the bad guys come to them, or if I have to move them do so via concealed paths (through woods, behind or through buildings, etc.). At the very least, I try to make sure they are accompanied by a platoon of infantry to suppress any enemy infantry (or at least give them something else to shoot at; there's strength in numbers ).

You might be right about buttoned up and busy AFVs having too low a spotting threshold (again, I haven't experienced this), but as for everybody else identifying AT teams, that honking big piece of stovepipe that they carry around is a bit of a giveaway, you know.

Michael

[This message has been edited by Michael emrys (edited 01-23-2001).]

[JoePrivate]

The supporting infantry have Nokia Cell phones and call the tankers and let them know what direction the the AT teams are approaching.

Yep, a buttoned AFV is a sitting duck usually when alone but the nefarious hive-like mind of the troops saves their bacon, er goose.

[Juardis]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

On the other hand, you may also be partly the victim of your own faulty tactics. When I use zooks, I try to keep them out of the LOS of unfriendly types until they shoot.

yes, truly you may be correct about poor tactics. I also keep infantry with them but behind them. If I'm attacking, then I need to push my AT teams up as close to possible to the front lines since typically tanks are way behind the front providing support. I also use smoke and exploit breakthroughs.

but as for everybody else identifying AT teams, that honking big piece of stovepipe that they carry around is a bit of a giveaway, you know.

Yes, but if you see that honking piece of stovepipe then it is no longer identified as infantry? or crew?, but as an AT team. If positively ID'd, yeah, blast the crap out of them. My issue is that when running in a platoon, AT teams are preferrentially targetted even when they are ID'd as crew? or infantry? (I tested this with a hot seat game). My issue is that they are spotted by buttoned tanks too easily (IMHO).

I'm curious. Do you never hunt tanks with your AT teams? Am I the only one that does so? I suck at using armor so consequently, my armor dies first and fast. My only real options thereafter are my AT teams.

[Lordfluffers]

Holding a zook is not a very sublte affair. I am presuming that most tankers could recognise the outline of a rifle. Similarly I'm sure they would have realised that the big pipe looking things wwere not good for their health nor their vehicles. Just my pondering on the subject.

[Guest Napoleon1944]

The Piat is another story. It is smaller and can be fired from a prone position.

I had a night encounter in snow and a Stug was easily able to spot my Piat teams sneaking up on it from a 4 o'clock position.

If the At teams were less likely to be spotted, it would make a huge difference in these tactical games, since the armor would be wary to approach any sort of terrain that could conceal an AT team. Which is in fact, historical. Tanks feared close terrain, especially buildings.

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The only enemy I fear is nature.

-Napoleon

[Leonidas]

I have noticed that sometimes units will react to information that is not yet available to me. I had one PBEM game in which I was laying in wait with AT guns, and the enemy was probing with halftracks. A Halftrack unexpectedly began backing up and hiding behind a building, even though the enemy told me that he couldn't see the gun. But the skittish halftrack was enough to convince him that something was there, so he started hiding his armor.

[Pak40]

Originally posted by Juardis:

I'm curious. Do you never hunt tanks with your AT teams? Am I the only one that does so? I suck at using armor so consequently, my armor dies first and fast. My only real options thereafter are my AT teams.

Yes. But there is a big difference between hunting and rushing a tank with lots of infantry (which is what you're discribing).

Hunting requires patience, sneaking, waiting, patience, sneaking, waiting, then BLAM!

A zook is not an offensive weapon, but you're trying to use it as one.

It seems to me you are trying to kill your oppenets armor as quickly as possible, which seems logical, but it always isn't the best choice.

The great thing about infantry vs. armor is that your infantry can always see the tank. The tank can't see all of your infantry. Your infantry, therefore, have the edge and can stay out of LOS. The enemy tank will have to work its way closer to get a shot at the infantry. That's when your hidden zook takes him out. Now if you're playing a map without much cover then you should have bought an AT gun, not zooks.

[Guest Michael emrys]

Originally posted by Juardis:

I also keep infantry with them but behind them.

Ah! No wonder then that your AT teams are dying. It's better to keep the infantry in front of the AT guys.

Do you never hunt tanks with your AT teams?

Yes, and in every case that I can recall, I got off at least one shot before I was spotted.

Michael

[Juardis]

OK, let me give a specific example in current battle. Light fog, visibility about 650m. He has hetzers and Jpz IVs. I have infantry. He has some supporting infantry, but not enough to stop me. He has more than enough armor to stop me. So to win, I have to take out his armor. My tanks are dead, my arty is running low. I have zooks and infantry. Now then, at first I advance slowly and steathily until someone is spotted and fired upon. OK, he knows I'm near. His tanks are in great overwatch position and I have to cross open space between tree copses to get to him. So I first button up his Hetzers and JPz with mortar and arty, then I use smoke. Since I have Glider squads with inherent AT capability, I rush a whole platoon of them with the zook to a tree copse. Now, I haven't rushed a tank yet, I'm just rushing from one copse of trees to another, under smoke, in foggy conditions, 400m away from any enemy unit, with buttoned up Hetzers and JPz. Yet, here's the beef, the tanks draw a bead to my zook and shoot at it!

A few moves later those same Hetzers and JPz IVs are engaged in something else and I have snuck within 300m of them. Yet I have to get closer. His infantry in this area is gone thanks to the platoon I brought with me, but there are some MG nests further back behind the tanks. There is more cover about 150m to the flank of the tanks. Now remember, they're buttoned. Drop smoke, run entire platoon (with zook) to the cover 150m from the flank. What do they do? They rotate and fire at my damn zook through some of the smoke!!!! Then they reverse to get out of range and continue firing at my damn zook in between smoke clouds!!!

This single battle highlights my frustration. AT teams are spotted too easily. Maybe it's different with piats, maybe not, I don't know.

Now then, am I doing something wrong with zooks? I don't think so. It just seems to me that the TAC AI knows something that my opponent doesn't. If this is how it's going to be, then fine, I need to really work on using armor better. But I just can't believe that buttoned up Hetzers and JadgPanzers can spot anything in their flanks, let alone picking an AT team out of a crowd and shooting at it.

No more whines left. Thanks for letting me vent.

[Pak40]

This sounds like you're attacking and as I stated above, the zook is not an offensive weapon. I realize you have no choice since your tanks are taken out already. But, I'm not surprised at all by the results, even with the use of smoke.

Any commander that tells his infantry to run across open ground to take out several tanks/SP guns (and some infantry) should expect the plan to fail.

I think I can help explain why the SP guns turned onto the zook teams. I think the first one, at 400m, was by random chance. You rushed a platoon with the zook, therefore the SP gun had a 20% of choosing the zook team. Just bad luck.

The second one, you were only 150 meters away. The SP guns probably got the "AT team?" unit idification and logically aimed at him first.

Now, I know you are going to say that the guns shouldn't have spotted your men through the smoke and the fog, and that's where I have a couple of questions for you:

1) were you using onboard mortars to make the smoke?

2) where was the smoke placed? on the open areas where your men ran?

[Tiger]

Hollow-charged weapons are spotted just like normal weapons I think. Most of the time my tanks see things in this order:

1) Infantry?

2) AT Team?

3) Bazooka/Panzerschreck/Piat

How fast the spotted unit goes from 1 to 3 depends on alot of factors, the most important I believe is the spotting tank's/vehicle's experience level, and whether or not it's taking incoming fire, especially from the ? unit in question. if you see a unit point a stove-pipe looking weapon at you, see and hear the fwooshie noises and the impact of a nearby miss, chances are it's a hollow charge weapon.

-Tiger

[Guest Napoleon1944]

The real problem is that they spot too easily amongst the chaos of battle. Under extreme stress it seems likely you will fire at the closest enemy threat. There is no time to waste trying to discern targets in a ww2 tank especially while buttoned. From a reenactment standpoint, I learned a great deal about chaos of battle. There are so many things to worry about in a battle. I have a hard time with the spotting rules for armor. Anyone who wants to make a field trip to APG would be helpfl. We can climb up on a tank at night and see for ourselves. Maybe a bunch of people could hide and run at the tank and see which one he spots 1st!

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The only enemy I fear is nature.

-Napoleon

[Tontoman]

I found it best if you do the following.

1) get them in position BEFORE the tank comes around. It takes some guesswork but it's much better than running around with that huge pipe that says 'shoot me'.

Best is on reverse slopes (bottom of a hill that the tank will be silueted on when he moves over the crest) as you are less likely to be spotted by any enemy troops who also might be around. You got to pick your spot, maybe even lure the tank into the area you want.

2) Button the tank! Get a machine gun to target it. First this buttons the tank and second machine guns seem high on the list of the tanks food chain.. so they will target it. Yes it sucks for the machine gunner but thats life.

Ambush the tank while it has target and buttoned. So if you guy is hiding (he should be) order him to target the tank (if he doesn't do it himself) while the tank is buttoned and engaged with another target. Seems to work well but don't know if the games makes the tank 'look' around less if it's engaged for a fact.

[Juardis]

OK, I did a test last night. Flat map, 800m across. 4 copses of woods set at each corner. The americans had 1 platoon in each copse + 1 zook, 1 sharshooter, 1 MG team and 1 81mm mortar team. The Germans had 2 hetzers, 2 Jadgpanzer IVs, and a Pz IV/70. I buttoned the tanks and rotated them 90 degrees.

I ran the test 5 times.

1st test: The americans were spotted about 400m away but no tanks rotated or turned. The germans ID'd them as "infantry?". 200m away, at an angle of about 120 degrees (i.e., back and to the right of the tanks), one of the JPz draws a bead straight to my zook. The germans ID'd it as "infantry?". 150m away the ID turned from "infantry?" to "AT team?" My 2 problems were illustrated right here on the first test. That is the JPz was buttoned and spotted a unit running when it was behind him and then when he did spot them he targetted the AT team first not really knowing that it was an AT team.

2-5 tests: More of the same. Spotting was sporadic. Sometimes the americans were spotted, sometimes they weren't. 2 american groups times 5 tests = 10 chances to spot running infantry. Out of those 10 chances, a group was spotted 6 times. In all cases, when a bead was drawn to a unit (happened 5 times), it was to the AT team. In all cases, the AT team was initially ID'd by the Germans as "infantry?" In all 5 cases that the AT team was targetted, the targetting occurred at 200m, plus or minus 10m. It's like a switch goes on that warns a tank that there is a AT team within range.

One other thing. Only the JPz IVs spotted anything. The hetzers were deaf, dumb, and blind the whole time. The JPz IVs though were almost clairvoyant. So I ask one more time. Do JPz IVs have vision slits in the side and rear?

Regardless, either the TAC AI is cheating or the graphics are not being updated as fast as the TAC AI is reacting. For Napoleon, I did not test piats, sorry.