CM2 - Unit limits

[Redcoat]

Will the unit limit coded into CMBO be used in the upcoming CM2 or will we have a much larger limit to play around with?

Considering the maps will be much larger in CM2 (?) the scope of the game will be able to cover (for example) a Panzer Regiment consisting of a Panther Battalion and a mixed Panzer IV / Assault gun Battalion. This would be supported by a Panzergrenadier Regiment - 1 Armoured Battalion and 2 Motorised Battalions.

Trying a battle of this size is (just) possible in CMBO, although many 'unneccasary' units have to be discarded, and of course having an armoured Grenadier battalion is impossible because it would leave little room for any other infantry let alone 4 Companies of tanks.

There are many people like myself who enjoy pushing CM's capabilities (and our pc's) to the limit and it's unfortunate that these limits are in place.

For the most part it is true that large formations such as this didn't all participate in a battle, but if the maps are going to be as large as I hope (10km by 5km or bigger!) it will be possible to keep a Battalion of the infantry and 1 or 2 of the Tank Companies as a reserve well away from the fighting, and be commited when/if needed (for the historically minded player like myself)

Now and again I go back to Talonsoft's West front or East front for my Divisional fixes, it's a weakness of mine.

So will BTS be increasing the unit limit for CM2? I would be happy with even 100 extra units per side, it would make the planning and execution of the larger type of game much easier.

Thoughts, flames? Any comment Steve?

Redcoat

[ 04-08-2001: Message edited by: Redcoat ]

[The Commissar]

I agree with you, Redcoat! If our current game is anything to judge by, maps are big enough as it is in CMBO, but as they say "Bigger is Better". Maybe if we had more units available our forces would clash by now !

Right then, since the battles on the Ostfront were considerably larger in scale then those on the West front, and considering the imporvements in PC power when CM2 is released, I suggest an option for more units is available. My current computer can already handle downright gigantic numbers of units, so more wouldnt hurt much. If you dont want it, dont play it, right?

[Gen-x87]

Well depends on where they want to take the game.

I like having large amounts of units also. But to tell you the truth if you had a regiment and a large # of tanks you would be spending lots of time just organizing the reinforements.

I just created a battle where both the Germans and Brits\Americans toped out at about 11,500 points a piece. I had a large amout of points come in for the Germans in 1 reinforment. It was a pain just organizing the units much less enjoying myself. What I would not mind seeing is some kind of online 4 player action for CM2 where lets say you have large maps with a good amount of forces and two players are on each side of the map coordinating attacks ect.....

But maybe that is getting too gamey for this wonderful sim.

Gen

[lcm1947]

Yeah, having teams play against each other would be out of this world, but I doubt it'll happen, but boy if it did. Course I would have to buy another computer but hey that's not all that bad either.

[Olle Petersson]

Hmm...

Last night I did a little more work on a pseudohistorical scenario of mine.

One side have about 25 tanks (mostly H39), the other a couple of trucks, halftracks, carriers and towed guns.

Neither side has any appreciable amount of infantry, and the terrain is flat without cover.

With my new computer, a PIII 800/133 w 128MB RAM, crunching of the first two turns took about two minutes each.

When crunching the third turn the computer locked up (probably due to overload).

If this will be a standard feature of CM2 I'm not sure I'll like it...

Cheers

Olle

[Redcoat]

Commissar: Our game is relatively small! I've played 16000 point custom QB attacks that dwarf our game

Current maps can support a battle as I described in my first post, but for tactical reasons they need to be considerably larger.

Gen-x87: Yes it depends on where they want to take the game, but there will always be people like me who prefer larger games and will push CM's capabilities regardless of BTS's vision of what CM should be like. BTS gave in to the customers demands and gave us 5000 point QB's. As a loyal and happy customer I'm asking for a unit limit increase to aid my enjoyment of the next game.

I actually enjoy setting up - planning tactics - and finally setting a very large force into motion, or spending a couple days setting up a multiple layered defence that will have to stop a 15000 point Axis Combined arms assault force. It's all a matter of taste and whether you have the patience to deal with it.

A quadruple player PBEM game would indeed be fun..

Olle Petersson: Comparatively few people use the 5000 point QB option, they arn't forced to use it you see, much like people wont be forced to use the largest maps and (hopefully) larger unit limit in CM2. If I want to push my PC until it explodes let me do it, it doesn't mean you have to join me, but I wish I could find more people who enjoy the larger games

I'm not asking for a standard feature for CM2, I'm asking for an option, there is a difference.

Redcoat

[ 04-09-2001: Message edited by: Redcoat ]

[Olle Petersson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Redcoat:

Olle Petersson: Comparatively few people use the 5000 point QB option, they arn't forced to use it you see, ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>My point wasn't so much a question of if it's desireable to play huge battles (which it's not, for me), but if the hardware permitts it.

The scenario I've done is by no means huge, but rather medium-large sized. (About 40 Axis units and 60 Allied units, which is comparable to one battalion a side.)

Still my better-than-average computer grinds down to very slow or even hang up completely, requiring a restart to get going.

If the game allows more units to be used on each side, and the terrain becomes more open, then incidences like that will be fairly common when playing huge battles.

Unless there are some very clear warning lables that this is expected to occur, complaints about this "bug" will also be common...

Cheers

Olle

[Stixx]

I'd love to hear something from BTS on this. I love large battles.

A 10Km square map would be brilliant. The force size isn't as important to me but purely the room to manouver.

Currently you might only have a defensive line 2-4 hundred meters deep that is any good for a defense.

With a big map you could move that 2-4 Km deep and set up where YOU like to set up your defense. Not just in the ONLY place you have available like it currently stands.

[Redcoat]

I by no means have the fastest PC available - PIII 933Mhz 256mb 133mhz SDRAM GeForce2GTS

yet it copes with everything the current CM can throw at it at 1024x768 and higher, and believe me I've played the largest possible battles.

People will naturally find what size battles they and their computers can handle comfortably, people arn't fish, they do have long term memories The people who would complain are the ones who are argumentative by nature and arn't taken seriously by myself.

Once again, it is just a suggested option for people like myself. In East Front / West Front I tried a Corps level game once, found it too difficult /time consuming and have limited myself to commanding no larger than Divisional strength since.

People try 5000 point and larger games in CM, either love them or hate them (PC limited or just too large for the particular person to cope)People like myself who love them want help from the developer to further our interest.

If it's really that difficult to increase the maximum number of units per side then we shall have to wait for CMII and the rewrite, but until Steve says "not in the scope of the game*" or "Too difficult to re-code" I shall remain hopeful.

*It is in the scope of the game because it's happening right now. Formations may have been tampered with in the editor to make room for more important units but the scale of it does work in the CM engine.

Redcoat

[Stixx]

Has BTS replied to this topic at all?

I would be really interested in hearing what they had to say.

But I'm just a Junior Member so i peobarly won't get a reply :confused:

[Redcoat]

*Bump*

No word from Steve yet. New board doesn't help, couple new posts and this post will be on the second page again.

Redcoat

[Stixx]

**Bump**

[The Commissar]

Ill have to add that if size and number of units is increased, we should see an increase in maximum number of turns.

Those 10km maps sure do sound grand, but try marching from one end to the other in 60 turns (the current max for CM). Im having trouble moving across 1/5th that distance for the past 25 turns in our game (Redcoat)!

I salvitate at the thought of 10km long city battles though, so this thing deserves a *BUMP*

[Panzer_Meyer]

Stalingrad comes to mind.

It would be nice if someone made a HUGE map which was Stalingrad itself. This would fir into this GRAND scale thing of 10km maps.

Huge number of units and re-inforcments.

For this though, you would also need an etended number of battles per operation. So you can cover more time, maybe a 3 weeks worth of battle.

That would be nice. Time to buy MORE memory!

[Mattias]

Current maximum number if turns in a scenario is 120 Commissar.

Lack of ammunition will stop most attacks before that, regardless of map size.

Just as there is a lower threshold for CM's design, lets call it "squad" level, there is a maximum level. The game is simply not designed to cater for all types of combat.

The more requests for micro management features and bigger this and that, the more impressed I get by the level of consistency in CM's design. BTS has really hit the squad level (and then some) "spot" with this one.

M.

[FriendlyFire]

Let's face it, none of us are going to be REALLY satisfied until we can play the whole of Kursk on one map

[The Commissar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mattias:

Current maximum number if turns in a scenario is 120 Commissar.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That may be the case, but to create a scenario every time you want to play a large map is quite a hassle, wouldn't you agree? Or maybe you want some suspence in it for you and your opponent? Either way, Id like more turns available in a QB type mode, the real reason Im participating in this thread.

Like I suspect many here do, I like random generated maps.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mattias:

Lack of ammunition will stop most attacks before that, regardless of map size.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since when has a minor hinderance such as lack of ammunition stopped the Red Army?

Seriously though, that's what reinforcements are for. The ones on "LOW" ammunition can still be used somewhat effectively in large numbers, since they do return fire and fire at the enemy on command once a turn.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mattias:

The more requests for micro management features and bigger this and that, the more impressed I get by the level of consistency in CM's design. BTS has really hit the squad level (and then some) "spot" with this one.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which, IMHO, is one of the biggest reasons for the game's success.

[ 04-10-2001: Message edited by: The Commissar ]

[Stixx]

I'm still wondering if BTS has or will to reply to this topic?