jasoncawley@ameritech.net Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 On another thread, Commissar said - "I would like to ask someone for a realistic-looking setup for a Cav force...I know the light vehicles like the Greyhound and light tanks like Stuarts have to be in, but what else?" A fine question. The right way to address it is to give the organization of a U.S. armored recon battalion (aka squadron), because that was the force that parcelled out its elements into task forces to do things. First, cavalry nomenclature. A group is a regiment, a squadron is a battalion, a troop is a company, while a platoon is still a platoon. Got that? LOL. I'll use the infantry sizes with the other in parens to keep it clear. You get an HQ, then either 3 or 4 standard recon companies. In the armor divisions, the dedicated armored cavalry battalion has 4 - in other units (infantry, corps level, independent, yadda yadda), it is 3 companies. Then, they have 1 company of Stuarts. One company of the M8 SP 75mm howitzer "assualt guns", which has 8 guns in the case of the armored, and 6 in the other cases. The Stuart company has 17 tanks, 2 for HQ and 5 in each of 3 platoons. These platoons are generally parcelled out to the recon troops, but sometimes 1 whole platoon stays with the HQ tanks as a sort of big-platoon in reserve, to react to things. That means each recon company can have 5 of them, or only 3 - it will vary with whether a reserve is kept and in an armored force or not. When the mission is recon and advance, the 75mm howitzer SPAs are parcelled out 2 per recon company. When instead it is a screening, defense, or dismounted mission, they stay together and fire as a battery of 75mm indirect arty (sometimes 2 4-gun batteries in the case of the armored, sometimes 1 big 8-gun battery there). You now now everything you need to about the higher level units that will support a recon company. 3-5 Stuarts and 0-2 75mm SPA, with on call 75mm when the second is "0". A recon company itself is organized into three platoons. Each platoon has 1 M8 Greyhound, which has the radio and was used for overwatch. And 2 *Jeeps*. One of the jeeps carried a 60mm mortar, the other was the scout jeep. The jeeps were supposed to be armed with a .30 cal MG, but this was upgunned to a .50 cal whenever the gunners could. There were 3 men in each jeep and they had M-1 rifles (the howitzer and HQ guys had M-1 carbines); everybody tried to get a .45 too. SMGs were not issued, but may have been "acquired" if that was someone's preferred small arm. A company on a recon mission, then, has 3-5 Stuarts, 2 75mm MGC, 3 M-8 Greyhound, 6 Jeeps (with MG), and they are packing 3 60mm mortars on the Jeeps. There are also radios in the Greyhounds used to call fire missions and to communicate between platoons. The recon practice was an agile jeep MG on point, an M-8 Greyhound on overwatch. The other jeep has the mortar if that is needed, or can take over if the point is disabled. The MGCs shoot up infantry and the Stuarts MG enemy infantry, while the M-8s and Stuarts all got after soft skinned enemy vehicles and the like. The mortars were prized because they allowed the recon guys to hit things without exposing their thin-skinned vehicles. Earlier (in North Africa) there had been only 2 in a company, but the men wanted one per platoon and got it. In some units and later in the war, M-20 utility cars were substituted for the jeeps, or sometimes the M-8s. But the basic platoon was 2 jeeps and 1 M-8. Acting dismounted, which they did on occasion to scout for their vehicles and clear buildings and such, the cavalry are one "step" down on the size scale. Meaning, a platoon is really only a squad of guys when on foot, and a company / troop is a platoon of guys. They have just got lots of MGs, 37mm guns, 75mm howitzer, and 60mm mortars for such a tiny bunch of men, and in zippy vehicles. How to model all of this in CM? It isn't exact, because CM does not show the flexibility of the cavalry. The men of a "platoon" can by turns be - a 60mm mortar team plus an MG team or "jeep MG" crew, or a half-squad, or two "jeep MG" crews, and the crew of the M-8 is actually also the FO. Realistically a cavalry commander could take any mix he likes of - MMG teams, 60mm mortar teams, half-squads, regular jeeps to get the full-team carrying capacity or jeep MGs for the mounted firepower, etc. He just gets 6 Jeeps (or M-20s) and whatever he can stuff into them in CM terms (with a max of 3x60mm mortar it is true) - if he has a company / troop. Plus 3 M-8s and 3-5 Stuarts and 2 MGCs. They are light troops. Very little depth to take casualties with. But one troop is ~15 vehicles, basically the same number as a "company" of tanks or armored infantry. I hope this addresses your fine question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 A truly excellent site on the Mech Cav: http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/9517/ And a very nice post, too. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. [This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 02-06-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aacooper Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 Very nice post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 Thought this deserved a bump. Thanks for the info, Jason! Cheers! ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 So given the types of victory conditions currently available to a scenario or operation designer, how would one best simulate a "typical" reconaissance mission in CM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: So given the types of victory conditions currently available to a scenario or operation designer, how would one best simulate a "typical" reconaissance mission in CM? Large map, small amount of forces, critical point (e.g. junction, railway junction, bridge). Small defensive force, possibility for flanking. Roadblocks, minefields, snipers. At Der Kessel I have put up '49th Recce' which is supposed to simulate a recon scenario. I would like to get some feedback on whether it plays like one. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefly Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 Fionn also did some recon rules for QBs, perhaps not as famous as his Short 75 an Panther/76 rules but they look interesting. Brief synopsis Battle type 'mechanised' (i.e no tanks), no vehicles with a gun larger than 50mm and no artillery larger than 81mm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 I'm not concerned so much with order of battle as with realistic "victory" conditions. To a recce/recon commander - what would a "victory" be given a typical reconaissance mission? Would they have concerned themselves with seizing terrain - or merely exposing enemy units/positions and then returning alive to report on it? Or would they actually be charged with seizing terrain (ie a start line) from which other operations by infantry/armoured units would springboard from. I don't know, which is why I ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: I'm not concerned so much with order of battle as with realistic "victory" conditions. To a recce/recon commander - what would a "victory" be given a typical reconaissance mission? Would they have concerned themselves with seizing terrain - or merely exposing enemy units/positions and then returning alive to report on it? Or would they actually be charged with seizing terrain (ie a start line) from which other operations by infantry/armoured units would springboard from. I don't know, which is why I ask. In the static conditions of Normandy, the UK ID's Recce Rgts often had rear-area or flank security during operations by the rifle batallions. These would not be a lot of fun to play, since they are rather boring (for the player, not for the recce guys in those days, who were probably quite happy). Recce officers attached to units would drive around in Humber SCs and check for the enemy in villages and elsewhere. Once the battle opened up, the Recce Rgt's role was to reconnoitre the way ahead, find and eliminate minor resistance, seize critical junctions and secure them. In that case, having them seize an important (but lightly defended) road junction, or clear a roadblock somewhere would be adequate victory conditions, IMO. Other jobs are much more difficult to simulate. A good book on the matter (so I have been told) is 'Only the enemy in front'. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve McClaire Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 I've read several sources that talk about how infrequently US Cavalry Squadrons were actually assigned to do straight recon missions. In "Hitler's Last Gamble" (pg 386), Trevor Dupuy gives the following percentages for missions assigned to cavalry units: Defensive operations 33%, Special operations (acting as a reserve, patrolling rear areas, hauling cargo, etc) 29%, Security (blocking, screening, filling gaps) 25%, offensive operations 25% -- with recon operations at only 3%. If completely true, it would seem that a real recon mission wouldn't really be 'typical' of what a cavalry squadron actually did. But I think you could simulate one by setting up a large map, a small US recon force, and a modest sized German force (big enough to be trouble for the cavalry unit by itself). Have a large body of US troops enter late in the scenario, with the objective of elimintating the Germans. Don't leave enough turns for the 'fighting body' to do its own scouting around the map, just enough for it to go straight to the enemy and engage. So if the recon units haven't already located the enemy, the main body can't accomplish the mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 I've got an article on my 'Spaceports' site called "The Reconnaissane Squadron" from 1943 that some people may find interesting. ------------------ Check out http://www.geocities.com/funfacts2001/ or http://hyperion.spaceports.com/~funfacts/ for military documents written during WWII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted February 6, 2001 Share Posted February 6, 2001 Originally posted by Steve McClaire: I think you could simulate one by setting up a large map, a small US recon force, and a modest sized German force (big enough to be trouble for the cavalry unit by itself). Have a large body of US troops enter late in the scenario, with the objective of elimintating the Germans. Don't leave enough turns for the 'fighting body' to do its own scouting around the map, just enough for it to go straight to the enemy and engage. So if the recon units haven't already located the enemy, the main body can't accomplish the mission. What a great idea. Thanks! regards, --Rett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted February 7, 2001 Share Posted February 7, 2001 Originally posted by Steve McClaire: ...Trevor Dupuy gives the following percentages for missions assigned to cavalry units: Defensive operations 33%, Special operations (acting as a reserve, patrolling rear areas, hauling cargo, etc) 29%, Security (blocking, screening, filling gaps) 25%, offensive operations 25% -- with recon operations at only 3%. Hm. That adds up to 115%. Those were some busy guys! If completely true, it would seem that a real recon mission wouldn't really be 'typical' of what a cavalry squadron actually did. It would be interesting to see how they were employed in France, especially during the Breakout & Pursuit phase. Would also be interesting to see how the Germans used their recce units, especially as the war wore on. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve McClaire Posted February 7, 2001 Share Posted February 7, 2001 Hm. That adds up to 115%. Those were some busy guys! Whoops! User error. Offensive operations should have been 10%, not 25%. I don't have any specific data on what cavalry units were doing during the August pursuit, but it does seem reasonable that that's where most of their 'recon' was done. Given that this phase was only a couple of weeks long, I guess it makes some sense that the cavalry didn't have much total recon time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted February 7, 2001 Share Posted February 7, 2001 Time for a little more shameless plugging... you should try "A day in the cavalry", a scenario available from seceral scenario websites and also from here: http://www.gamesofwar.de It depicts what is supposed to be a typical day on a cavalry recon mission. It doesn't necesserily end that way, though ------------------ "An hour has 60 minutes, each minute in action has a thousand dangers." - Karl-Heinz Gauch, CO 1st Panzerspähkompanie, 12th SS Panzerdivision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoncawley@ameritech.net Posted February 8, 2001 Author Share Posted February 8, 2001 The most common mission for the cavalry was screening a long gap between denser infantry formations, or the flanks of an armored thrust. This was patroling, setting up OPs, and fighting delaying actions if any counterattack was seen, while calling in artillery and reinforcements. They probed forward in such roles too, to find German withdrawls and occupy empty ground. There was a lot more of that empty ground than you might think. When an armored division pushed forward 5 miles, people got out of its way, so to speak, and the new front formed could be 4-5 miles back even miles away from the initial penetration. In breakthroughs, they were sometimes cut loose on the attack as raiders and to find routes, a sort of recon-in-force mission. They typically collided with infantry-force German columns and shot up wagons, trucks, towed arty, halftracks, and supply vehicles. They ran into AT guns and light armor pretty often, tanks and heavy TDs much less often, and they were more likely to back off in the latter case. They then reported routes clear of the enemy to follow-on forces. Sometimes they'd spend the night in an all-around position in the enemy rear to keep going the next day. I think the best way to depict realistic offensive cavalry roles would be an operation, on a large map, with a single U.S. cavalry squadron involved. Defenders would vary and be toward the low end, with attack odds or better for the cavalry in each encounter. Defenders would be mech or infantry for the most part, maybe one combined arms force in the whole operation. Force preservation would be at a premium, obviously, in such operations, so going cowboy too often would not make it the length of the map. A sample U.S. force for such a situation, pushing the carrying limits to the maximum to allow a mix of unit types - 4 Stuarts 3 M-8s Armored cars 2 MGC 75mm SP 3 Jeep MG 3 Jeep 1 Platoon HQ 3 Rifle Squads (split to teams) 3 60mm Mortar 1 Bazooka 1 Sharpshooter 1 105mm FO optional changes - can drop one squad for 2 dismounted MG teams. On defense a similar mix, maybe a few more dismounts and roadblocks, and a long, wide front to patrol. On defense it should be a scenario, though, not an operation. They'd withdraw or get relief rapidly. A sample attacking force they might be expected to handle or at least delay, would be a leg infantry force with just 2-3 assault guns for armor, and a few trucks to transport heavier weapons (81mm mortars, HMGs, maybe 2 towed 75mm infantry guns). The rest on foot. I hope this is useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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