Mr. Clark Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 Listening to the radio at work today, I heard a report that the US army is LOW ON AMMO! Particularly 9mm. A caller then mentioned that one of the reasons is due to switching to (or already using) Tungsten rounds... Is this true? If so, is it the same principle as CM Tungsten rounds? Are they armor piercing rounds then? Is this the equivelant of full metal jacket rounds? Anyone? ------------------ "Fear is for the enemy... Fear and Bullets." "They didn't want to come... but I told em, by jeepers, it was an order." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 There are tungsten rounds for pistols, a tungsten core in the middle of a lead bullet with a copper jacket designed to penetrate body armor. Being low on ammo is nothing new. In 1983 The United States Army fell to something like 4 war days of stock of 5.56 ammunition, and in 1986 stocks of 105mm tanks rounds were like 18 days in a war setting. Every year some ammo or other goes on the warning list, you just do not always hear about it. This is especially true when wizzbang projects are over budget because they drain line item money away, and the only place the military has to skimp is in ammunition. SDI, a tillion dollar boonoggle that has not worked correctly in a decade of research and likely will never work correctly has several times needed quick infusions of cash -- in the past at the cost of ammunition purchases. Same thing could be happening here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 Weren't we out of 500lb and 1000lb bombs during the Vietnam war? I think we even had to buy back WWII surplus bombs that we sold to Germany. Ironic, huh? Why use tungsten bullets instead of hydra shok type pistol rounds? They're both designed to penetrate body armor, and I'd have to guess that tungsten would be more expensive. Better long range penetrating power, maybe? ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 I am not sure why tungsten would be used at all, I have nothing on it at all, except that tungsten cored ammunition is made, mostly for security forces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 Originally posted by Slapdragon: I am not sure why tungsten would be used at all, I have nothing on it at all, except that tungsten cored ammunition is made, mostly for security forces. If these tungsten rounds are the same as the "green tips" they are poor performers vs. infantry. Read Blackhawk Down for first hand experience with them. ------------------ You've never heard music until you've heard the bleating of a gut-shot cesspooler. -Mark IV [This message has been edited by Vanir (edited 02-08-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 The reason the military doesn't use Hydra Shock bullets is because they are against the Hague and Geneva Conventions. (Which if memory serves, the US military abides by but did not sign.) It is very similar to a hollow point just alittle more powerful and alittle different. The Hydra Shock is a really mean bullet when it hits tissue fibers. Not quite as tidy as Ball ammunition. Basically war is still, "a gentlemen's" argument, if you will. It's ok to use flame warfare but not expanding ammunition. Actually if you're interested, many people think using a M2 (.50 cal MG) against personnel is a crime since the 12.7x99 BMG round started life as an anti-tank round during WW I. Sorry, got alittle off track. That is why the military doesn't use expanding ammunition, it against the Geneva and Hague Geneva Conventions. whew, Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PantherGunner Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 Yes we're low on 9mm ammo but it has nothing to do with Tungsten, it is a money problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Clark Posted February 8, 2001 Author Share Posted February 8, 2001 Thanks for the info guys! The man on the radio also mentioned that Tungsten only comes from China... which I had certainly not heard before... I have to look that one up. A second caller DID say it was simply a money problem, as Panther Gunner did. When did Tungsten small arms ammo begin usage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 Flamethrowers are also not allowed - Canada no longer uses flame weapons because, I believe, the Geneva Convention forbids them. I doubt we would think twice about using them in a war, but I'm no spokesman for DND. Shotguns are also "illegal", except for guarding prisoners. I'm pretty sure they were used in Vietnam anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LimShady Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 Shotguns are also "illegal", except for guarding prisoners. I'm pretty sure they were used in Vietnam anyway. Actually, if you read Eric Bergerud's "Touched With Fire", the Marines used shotguns on Guadalcanal. And yes they are prohibited by the Geneva Convention. LimShady [This message has been edited by LimShady (edited 02-08-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Mayer Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 My father toted a Remington 870 in the sewers of Saigon during the Tet offensive <g>. I don't think he worried too much about the the Geneva Convention, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barticus Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 IIRC, shotguns were banned after WW1 where American troops used a riot shotgun. As an early model pump, all you had to do was hold the trigger down and cycle the pump in order to fire the weapon. Aptly enough, it acquired the moniker "Trench Broom". It does not seem to have affected their wide spread adoption by nearly every police and military force in the western world though. ------------------ "I have slipped the surly bonds of earth...." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agua Perdido Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 Some of the tungsten confusion in military small arms ammo may come from initiatives to make "green" (ie, environmentally-friendly) ammo. Such ammo would not contain nasty things like lead, and I think tungsten and steel are some of the proposed replacements. I recall hearing about this on some Discovery Channel program that interviewed a Swiss small arms expert who was trying to perfect green, non-tumbling rifle ammo. I also recall hearing about "green ammo" initiatives in the US, although I don't know if any have been implemented or seriously considered. As a slightly related anecdote: in California, a state law requires shops to post signs warning consumers about products that contain dangerous chemicals. I once saw a sign in a sporting goods shop over the ammo display which read, "These products contain lead, a substance known by the State of California to cause birth defects or other reproductive harm." Agua Perdido ------------------ Feel the pain of outlaw cinema! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 Hmmm... I knew shotguns were illegal, but not the flame throwers. Thanks. (Personally though I would not blame anyone for using anything that would keep them alive. ------------------ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Martin Cracauer Posted February 9, 2001 Share Posted February 9, 2001 The tank book by Roger Ford mentions that the Germans in WW1 used tungsten ("Wolfram") rounds in ordinary rifles, causing great trouble for the early British tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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