Forever Babra Posted February 11, 2001 Share Posted February 11, 2001 In my latest game a Schwere Panzerspahwagen 234/1 scored a Jabo in its kill stats. I know that the 2cm KwK 38 has a maximum elevation of 70 degrees, but with a hand-cranked turret, would it be effective against aircraft? Not a complaint, just a question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow 1st Hussars Posted February 11, 2001 Share Posted February 11, 2001 Wow. I'm suprised you were able to shoot it down period. ------------------ Charlie don't Surf shadow@jagdtiger.de http://www.orbitonline.ca/~Shadow/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted February 12, 2001 Share Posted February 12, 2001 Hmmm... I thought this was fixed for version 1.12. Was that what you were using? No 20mm based vehicle, except for DEDICATED AAA vehicles, should be able to do anything against an aircraft. They simply weren't set up for such action. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted February 12, 2001 Author Share Posted February 12, 2001 The latest version mentioned that this was fixed for the Lynx, but didn't mention any other vehicles. Okay, so now you know. EDIT: Version 1.12, yes. [This message has been edited by Forever Babra (edited 02-11-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tero Posted February 12, 2001 Share Posted February 12, 2001 >I know that the 2cm KwK 38 has a maximum elevation of 70 degrees, but with a hand-cranked turret, would it be effective against aircraft? The FLAK the KwK was derived from was also hand-cranked. I've seen photos of a SdKfz-222 armoured car (equipped with the same KwK) engage aircraft in the Western Desert. The gun was at maximum elevation, looked like close to 90º. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted February 12, 2001 Share Posted February 12, 2001 This question sure seems to be coming up a lot lately --- or maybe I just notice it more since I brought it up first. Here's what I found out: The Sd Kfz 250/9, 251/23, and PSW 234/1 all mounted the Hangelafette 38 (swinging mount) turret allowing a positive gun elevation of 70 to 85 deg. You're right about the hand traverse, so I would imagine tracking an attacking AC would be next to impossible, but if you (luckily) lined up your vehicle correctly before the bombing run commenced, you might get a couple of good pops in. Who knows? Maybe it was a P51 and you hit it in that famous badly positioned under-wing radiator... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silencer Posted February 12, 2001 Share Posted February 12, 2001 I asked the same thing, Apperently those turrets where designed for anti-aircraft use. Mr Hofbaurer: yes. The standard 2cm/coax recon open turret setup (can't remember the designation) used for the PSW 222, 234/1 and elsewhere including the HT version you mention (250/9 IIRC) specifically provided for aiming at aircraft with the 2cm used in that turret's mount. http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/016096-2.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tero Posted February 12, 2001 Share Posted February 12, 2001 >The Sd Kfz 250/9, 251/23, and PSW 234/1 all mounted the Hangelafette 38 (swinging mount) turret allowing a positive gun elevation of 70 to 85 deg. 251/23 was never built. The Hangelafette turret was similar to the SdKfz-222 turret, only the construction was simpler. Take a look at http://www.shadowsfolly.com/WWII/Germany/SdKfz222.htm and tell me the photo of the SdKfz 222 engageing aircraft is doctored. >You're right about the hand traverse, so I would imagine tracking an attacking AC would be next to impossible, but if you (luckily) lined up your vehicle correctly before the bombing run commenced, you might get a couple of good pops in. CAS bomb runs normally started at 2000+ feet so they were NOT hugging the ground, nor were they inaudible. The ground troops had often "ample" warning of the coming attack so there was nothing "lucky" if the turrets (or indeed tha proper FLAK guns) were lined up towars the incoming aircraft. >Who knows? Maybe it was a P51 and you hit it in that famous badly positioned under-wing radiator... The FLAK version the KwK was derived from was VERY dangerous to aircraft. I think the only criteria for not being able to engage aircraft should be the actual limits of elevation on the gun. That is why I must insist all German vehicles with the Hanglafette turret should be able to engage aircraft. To deprive them of that ability is less than realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted February 12, 2001 Share Posted February 12, 2001 Steve, I respectfully beg to differ in regard to your sweeping assertion concerning nonflak German vehicles armed with 2cm cannon. I strongly concur with tero, and I have the data to back our position. The 234/1 should be able to at least potentially hit and down a Jabo. It has an open turret and a 2cm KwK in a mount virtually identical to the SdKfz 222 armored car, of which my source, SEMI-TRACKED VEHICLES OF THE GERMAN ARMY PART 2 Leichter Schuetzenpanzerwagen (Light Armoured Personnel Carriers) SdKfz 250 + Others, Bellona Handbook No.2, compiled by Peter Chamberlain and Hilary Doyle, p. 14. said of the 250/9: "This was the turret and equipment of the SdKfz 222 armored car mounted in the chassis of the SdKfz 250--a simple conversion which proved relatively successful...The 2cm and the MG 34 could be elevated plus 80 degrees to engage aircraft as well as the normal ground targets." For the record, there was also a similar installation on the Aufklarungspanzer 38t, though the turret had a few more facets. Generally speaking, light flak was not power operated. I have had the opportunity to "play" with twin 40mm mounts on the U.S.S. Alabama, a captured ex-Soviet 37mm AA gun, even a captured ex-Soviet 57mm AA gun, an S-60. All had manual traverse and elevation. The S-60 is more like medium flak. I don't know and couldn't find the elevation limits on the Luchs, but suspect they aren't atypical of other tanks. It is still the same rapid fire 2cm gun, though. A low level strafer could find itself severely embarrassed. I do agree that it would be severely restricted in capability compared to the 222 type turrets, since its elevation limits would preclude overhead fire. In closing, I'd like to mention a little shock some years ago that came out of some simulated combat tests the U.S. did, using A-10s and attack helicopters against U.S. tanks modeled as T-72s, supported by vehicles representing the ZSU/23/4 radar directed tracked AA gun and the SA-9 mobile surface-to-air missile. The shock? Multiple valid target locks with T-72 main guns against A-10s! In other words, the tankers sighted and targeted the A-10s with their hypervelocity 125mm guns. Using the same sort of laser modeling of the engagement that we use at the National Training Center the umpires concluded that several A-10s ate it from 125mm cannon hits. Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted February 12, 2001 Share Posted February 12, 2001 Originally posted by tero: 251/23 was never built. Really? I'm looking at a picture of one right now. Maybe it's a proto-type? CAS bomb runs normally started at 2000+ feet so they were NOT hugging the ground, nor were they inaudible. The ground troops had often "ample" warning of the coming attack so there was nothing "lucky" if the turrets (or indeed tha proper FLAK guns) were lined up towars the incoming aircraft. And unless you line up underneath that bomb run (what I meant by 'lucky'), odds are that your target won't be in the firing window for more that a few seconds, since the turret traverse is too slow to follow an AC moving across your field of fire at 300+ mph. The FLAK version the KwK was derived from was VERY dangerous to aircraft. I agree, but we're not talking about a flakvierling mount with a six man crew, just 2 guys trying to shoot and reload as fast as possible, all the while turning the turret hand-crank like crazy... PS: The gun elevation for the Luchs is listed as +18 deg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tero Posted February 12, 2001 Share Posted February 12, 2001 >Really? I'm looking at a picture of one right now. Maybe it's a proto-type? That info came from: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Pit/3515/251/#m23 which states only one composite photo is known to exists and no prototype was constructed. >And unless you line up underneath that bomb run (what I meant by 'lucky'), Being on the path increases the odds for hitting the plane as you are in fact firing at a target that is not moving laterally in relation to you. You only need nerves of steel to duke it out. Wether you are in an AFV or sitting on the handles of a regular FLAK gun. >odds are that your target won't be in the firing window for more that a few seconds, since the turret traverse is too slow to follow an AC moving across your field of fire at 300+ mph. The width of the window depends how far the plane is from the firer. Besides, tracking a single plane may not be the thing you want to do when there is a string of them coming in heel to toe (standard Western SOP, at least accoding to the combat footage I have seen). You just zero in and let it rip when the planes fly past the point you have selected as aiming point. Instead the plane you select a point in their flight path as target. Old AAA trick that still works. >I agree, but we're not talking about a flakvierling mount with a six man crew, just 2 guys trying to shoot and reload as fast as possible, all the while turning the turret hand-crank like crazy... IIRC the Hanglafette was free turning rather than geared. I have to check that. The chassis were not that big to house complex things like turret baskets associated with geared turrets for one. Both the KwK and FLAK variants used (5 round ?) clips which is more than adequate for throwing the aim of the airplanes off. Granted, speedy reloading is a pain but it is that when you are facing a land vehicle too so that point is irrelevant. >PS: The gun elevation for the Luchs is listed as +18 deg. That means that it can only engage targets that are either a little further away or flying close to the ground. I for one would not shed crocodile tears over Luchs not being AAA capable. But the vehicles with Hanglafette should most definitively be able to fire at the airplanes. [This message has been edited by tero (edited 02-12-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted February 12, 2001 Share Posted February 12, 2001 Concerning the AC 20mm use in an AA role, their is an photograph in Panzer Colours IIRC, showing an Sdkfz 222, with the turret screens open & the 20mm pointing almost straight up fireing in an AA role. Regards, John Waters ------------------ "We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field". Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. February 1945. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted February 12, 2001 Share Posted February 12, 2001 Originally posted by John Kettler: In closing, I'd like to mention a little shock some years ago that came out of some simulated combat tests the U.S. did, using A-10s and attack helicopters against U.S. tanks modeled as T-72s, supported by vehicles representing the ZSU/23/4 radar directed tracked AA gun and the SA-9 mobile surface-to-air missile. The shock? Multiple valid target locks with T-72 main guns against A-10s! In other words, the tankers sighted and targeted the A-10s with their hypervelocity 125mm guns. Using the same sort of laser modeling of the engagement that we use at the National Training Center the umpires concluded that several A-10s ate it from 125mm cannon hits. Regards, John Kettler It is SOP for the US Army to use tank main gun fire against helicopters and slow-flying aircraft. Heck, the gunnery simulator/trainers are even set up to practice it. Back on-topic: While the German armored car 2cm gun mounts were designed to allow AA fire, remember they were designed at a time (1930's) when a/c were a lot slower and presumably easier to shoot at. Does anyone have any data on them being used this way in combat and their effectiveness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted February 12, 2001 Share Posted February 12, 2001 The PSW Sd.Kfz. 231/1 and the Sd.Kfz. 250/9 should be able to engage aircraft with their 2cm. AD was their official secondary employment. The Luchs (Pz.Kpfwg. IIL) should not be able to engage aircraft any more than any other tank should be able to (with their main gun), which in CM terms means it should not be able to do so. PERIOD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Would love a response from Steve on the new information presented after his initial response. Please? John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tero Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Bump up the jam..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 bump ------------------ Sir are you sure you want to go to red alert...it would mean changing the bulb -Priest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoePrivate Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Originally posted by John Kettler: Would love a response from Steve on the new information presented after his initial response. Please? John Kettler I think Steve was simply mistaken in his initial post because the 250/9 and 234/1 both can fire at FBs with 1.12. It is only the Lynx that can't, which is in line with the information presented here. Are you saying the Lynx should be able to fire on FBs as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Joe Private, yes, w/r/t this issue everything is fine the way it is now. Please move along, nothing to fix here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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