v1.12 Operation phantom setup zones, smoke AI, etc.

[Tris]

I didn't see this prior to the v1.1 patch as I pretty much stay away from Operations due to . . . the lines . . . but I went back in there last night to edit one I've been fooling with for some time and noticed the Allies have a couple of small white setup boxes in front of the expected red setup zone to begin the third battle. Is this the same problem that was fixed for v1.1? If so, it's back. If not, something seems to be broken.

The AI still shoots off lots of smoke ordnance and very little of the boom-boom variety.

I had a veteran infantry squad sneak right past a German halftrack, in town, perfect line of sight (must have passed about 1 meter from this vehicle) with the AFV targeted but the infantry never fired a shot.

[Sherman]

Originally posted by Tris:

variety.

I had a veteran infantry squad sneak right past a German halftrack, in town, perfect line of sight (must have passed about 1 meter from this vehicle) with the AFV targeted but the infantry never fired a shot.

maby the halftack was out of amo?

[Tris]

Actually it was an Sd Kfz 7 w/o a gun. But my question is: why didn't the squad take out the AFV?

[Kingfish]

You said the squad "sneaked" past the HT. Did you give them a sneak command? If so then they won't fire unless fired upon first.

[Tris]

Squad's will walk right by the enemy without a thought, run pretty much wherever you send them (often to their own destruction of their own accord), but sneak (I thought) was the one command you could "safely" give a unit and expect it to engage an enemy upon contact. In any event, the infantry was given (by me) the AFV as a specific target, there was a clear red line leading from the infantry to the Sd kfz 7, but the squad still didn't bother itself in any manner, shape or form.

It ought to be intuitive that this behavior just isn't right.

[This message has been edited by Tris (edited 02-09-2001).]

[Mr. Clark]

I'm pretty sure that no matter WHAT other orders a unit has, as long as it is in the process of sneaking it won't engage... Thus, the sneaking.

It will return fire.

I find that MOVE works well, allowing units to fire at enemies while moving to a new location.

EDITED for 6th grade spelling...

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"Fear is for the enemy... Fear and Bullets."

"They didn't want to come... but I told em, by jeepers, it was an order."

[This message has been edited by Mr. Clark (edited 02-09-2001).]

[Tris]

The manual (Appendix says a unit order to sneak will "stop and take cover when engaged by enemy." Meanwhile, I still gave my unit orders to move right up to the Sd kfz 7 and fire on it, with no result.

The move command has been known to allow units to simply walk right on past its enemy counterparts even when it itself is fired upon.

What's going on here?

[This message has been edited by Tris (edited 02-09-2001).]

[Guest wwb_99]

Well, I can tell you that the white setup zones are used in some situations. In one OP with a 0m no-man's-land I had units that were placed in the white zones. I would think these zones represent the need to keep troops in the lines facing the enemy.

WWB

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Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say,

Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus.

[Pak40]

Originally posted by Tris:

I didn't see this prior to the v1.1 patch as I pretty much stay away from Operations due to . . . the lines . . . but I went back in there last night to edit one I've been fooling with for some time and noticed the Allies have a couple of small white setup boxes in front of the expected red setup zone to begin the third battle. Is this the same problem that was fixed for v1.1? If so, it's back. If not, something seems to be broken.

Were there any units in the white setup zone? If not, the bug may be back, if so then it works fine.

[RudeLover]

In the Op "Shanley's Stand" (with v1.1) I started the setup phase of the second battle with an occupied red setup zone (most of my side of the map), an occupied white setup zone (two little salients with ~ a platoon each), and an few bits of empty blue zone in areas right next to the white and red.

My take was that these were areas where no bad guys would pop up, but that I didn't control sufficiently well to allow troop placement (which made sense as they were areas I could easily bring fire on but would have been hard to occupy given the situation at the end of the prev. battle). I don't know if that's how it's supposed to work, but it made some sense. The lines were far from straight overall, which pleased me.

[Jagdcarcajou]

Hey,

As to the Sneak thing, the truck didn't "engage" you. Thus, your troops snuck past it, then they would turn to engage it (unless anything more threatening was visible - in this case a moth would do, since the truck is incapable of returning fire). If you wanted them to move AND shoot, give them a Move order.

Chris

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What the hell is a Jagdcarcajou?

CM Recon

[Michael Dorosh]

Since when is a Sd Kfz 7 an armoured fighting vehicle?

And why would a squad waste its ammo and time blowing one up?

[jackson44dday]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Since when is a Sd Kfz 7 an armoured fighting vehicle?

And why would a squad waste its ammo and time blowing one up?

It IS an armoured vehicle because it is armour plated. Why waste ammo on it? because it shoots at you, simple as that.

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He who conquers the past, cammands the future, he who cammands the future, conquers the past. - Kane

[Jagdcarcajou]

Originally posted by jackson44dday:

It IS an armoured vehicle because it is armour plated. Why waste ammo on it? because it shoots at you, simple as that.

No,

It doesn't shoot you because its a truck. It tows things and carries people, but otherwise it just sits there humming quietly to itself.

Chris

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What the hell is a Jagdcarcajou?

CM Recon

[Maximus]

Originally posted by jackson44dday:

It IS an armoured vehicle because it is armour plated. Why waste ammo on it? because it shoots at you, simple as that.

Fellas, the Sd Kfz 7 is the Primary Mover. Meaning it is designated as the towed artillery mover. It does NOT have a gun, so therefore it CAN'T shoot at you.

Question Tris, why would you have to sneak up on an unarmed vehicle?

If you truely did use the SNEAK command, then it did EXACTLY what it was supposed to. The SNEAK command tells the infantry to move slowly towards its waypoints and to stop and fire IF FIRED UPON. <--Key to the whole thing. Since the Sd Kfz 7 never fired on you, that is why your infantry "snuck on past".

If what you wanted to do was to fire on it an blow it up, I would have RAN my infantry up right next (ending waypoint) to the Sd Kfz 7 with TARGETING orders.

[This message has been edited by Maximus (edited 02-09-2001).]

[Pak40]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

And why would a squad waste its ammo and time blowing one up?

Uhh, because there's at least one German in the truck and the enemy can still use it as long as it's alive. The last reason you want to lose is because you let an enemy's truck go by and then he uses it to move an AT gun into position to kill your tanks. not smart. It's common policy to destroy or capture everything of the enemy's resources, right?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Pak40:

Uhh, because there's at least one German in the truck...

Now THAT makes sense!

Yes, you are indeed right. Sorry - I was picturing an abandoned halftrack - if this is the one I'm thinking of (don't have my references at work), this is the large prime mover they used in The Dirty Dozen?

Very open topped and very not armour plated?

Doesn't make much sense to weigh a prime mover down with armor plate...

[Tris]

I gave my infantry squad targeting orders to shoot at the Sd kfz 7. Since when won't infantry shoot at something when sneaking? I've used that technique a lot without any problems that I've noticed.

No, no other enemy was in the area. This occured inside of a small town square area, perfect LOS, etc.

What would happen, say, if the AFV turned out to be carry a squad of infantry? That squad wouldn't shoot at mine so what, my squad just sneaks past, then gets burned when these bad guys all of a sudden jump off the German vehicle?

I gave the sneak command because I wasn't sure what might be lurking around this German vehicle.

Re the white setup zones: nothing appeared in them and they only measure a tile deep and I think three across, perhaps four. there were two of these set up zones.

Again, the AI was shooting smoke off left and right instead of lethal ordnance at positions of mine containing armor assets which it could see into. What's with that? This issue was supposed to have been remedied with v1.1, yes?

Finally, in a PBEM this morning I watch a Pz IV take two consecutive penetrations (one lower front hull, other upper front turret) before succumbing to a shell that put it out of its misery. So, make it three penetrations in all to kill this panzer, and when its crew jumped out there were still three alive out of the original complement of five.

I'm not sure this sort of thing might not be possible in real life, just about anything is, I'd guess, but the odds against it must border on the fantastic.

[M Hofbauer]

what is all this BS about?

1. of course a tank can take multiple penetrations before being destroyed.

2. The sneak thing. Maximus and others already explained it in depth but you fail to understand it seems. You were *sneaking*, and *not fired upon*. If you're supposed to "sneak" = make as litle commotion whatsoever it doesn't seem prudent to be shooting around like 4th of July does it??

If you want them to shoot unengaged, use MOVE. RTFM.

3. The SdKfz prime movers (Sd.Kfz. 6, 7, 9, 10, 11) were NOT armored.

Tris, w h a t is your point?

[This message has been edited by M Hofbauer (edited 02-10-2001).]

[Mr. Clark]

Originally posted by Tris:

Again, the AI was shooting smoke off left and right instead of lethal ordnance at positions of mine containing armor assets which it could see into. What's with that? This issue was supposed to have been remedied with v1.1, yes?

I believe the old 1.1 complaint about smoke was that it was fired too often towards weak or INFANTRY units. Since you say that there was visible armor in your positions, the firing of smoke by the AI makes sense.

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"Fear is for the enemy... Fear and Bullets."

"They didn't want to come... but I told em, by jeepers, it was an order."

[Pak40]

Originally posted by Tris:

I gave my infantry squad targeting orders to shoot at the Sd kfz 7. Since when won't infantry shoot at something when sneaking? I've used that technique a lot without any problems that I've noticed.

Move command = sneaking but allows your men to shoot at whatever they want (or whatever you target), even if they are not fire upon.

Sneak command = move command but will not fire unless fired upon from a dangerous (usually close) unit.

The bottom line is that the squad did exactly what you told them to do. You simply issued the wrong command for what you intended them to do. The sneak command was useless because the truck could already see your men - there was no point in sneaking past it.

Think of it this way: The purpose of the sneak command is so that you can move without being seen. But since you were so close to the truck, it obviously saw your squad, therefore there's no point to sneak past it. The MOVE command would been better: your men still take cover while moving but they would have attacked the truck.

Re: White set up zones may be a bug. I'll have to test it out.

Re: 3 penetrations to knock out PzIV. Just because a shell punched through your armor doesn't mean that it hit something vital inside: engine, hydrolics, fuel, ammo, crew etc..

[Tris]

The bottom line is that the squad did exactly what you told them to do. You simply issued the wrong command for what you intended them to do. The sneak command was useless because the truck could already see your men - there was no point in sneaking past it.

The German AFV could not already see my men. Neither could my men see it. Other units had it spotted so it was "visible" from a bird's perspective. I used sneak to mitigate against any unhappy surprises should the AFV turn out to have a squad of its own onboard, or should an enemy squad suddenly appear from inside of one of the surrounding buildings. To me, that makes better sense to have issued move or run orders.

There was a thread some time ago where the move command was discussed. Accounts were given of infantry formations from both sides with LOS to each other "moving" past on to their ordered destinations without firing. At the time it was agreed that sneak might be a more appropriate command to have your men more prepared for combat and less geared toward movement, per se.

Point is, this is not spelled out in the manual and seems consistent within play according to accounts I've read. On top of that what we actually have to work with is not intuitive in any real-world sense, pretty much runs counter to actual behavior in the event.

Think of it this way: The purpose of the sneak command is so that you can move without being seen. But since you were so close to the truck, it obviously saw your squad, therefore there's no point to sneak past it. The MOVE command would been better: your men still take cover while moving but they would have attacked the truck.

I think you're ascribing stuff to sneak that isn't necessarily there. Can't be seen? There's more to "sneak" than simply "can't be seen," surely. Or ought to be. And again, none of this is spelled out.

Re: White set up zones may be a bug. I'll have to test it out.

They're there allright.

Re: 3 penetrations to knock out PzIV. Just because a shell punched through your armor doesn't mean that it hit something vital inside: engine, hydrolics, fuel, ammo, crew etc.

I already said it's possible. Anything's possible. That's not the same thing as saying it's also likely.

I mentioned this in passing since I had a short laundry list going. I might have also mentioned, while I was at it, that two of my opponent's vehicles (a StuG and Jagdpanzer, both regular quality, I believe) were (per my friend's feedback to me) ordered to go into hulldown positions in scattered trees to lay an ambush. Instead, both of them proceeded forward toward my oncoming infantry platoon, then turned right across this platoon's front and continued on, all the while managing to present my two Jumbo's with excellent flank shots. Jumbo 1 and Jumbo 2 did not fail to take immediate advantage of this situation. End result: two dead German AFV's.

For all I know there is nothing noteworthy in any of this behavior. It makes sense, though, to toss it out there while I'm relating events from my first exposure to the new version of the .EXE. (The scenario in question, by the way, is Wild Bill's Benicourt.)

Finally, it does not make sense for batteries to expend fifty rounds of smoke on a known enemy location. If you know the enemy's there you kill it when the opportunity presents itself. That's what war is about. Sure, there's a time for smoke, there are situations on the battlefield where it's the best tactical solution going. This was not, in my opinion, one of those situations.

The AI still makes a fool of itself in this area of the simulation. If you're satisfied with that, fine. I am not.

That's all.

[Vanir]

The sneak command is working as intended. You can argue that it should be different, but don't say it's a bug. This has been discussed many times in the past. Do a search.

Having a Pz IV survive 2 penetrations is a rare event in the game as it would be in real life. If you think otherwise you need to do some homework.

I can't really comment about the smoke thing since I've never seen it. In every game I've played the AI has dumped copious amounts of HE on me.

Originally posted by Tris:

I mentioned this in passing since I had a short laundry list going. I might have also mentioned, while I was at it, that two of my opponent's vehicles (a StuG and Jagdpanzer, both regular quality, I believe) were (per my friend's feedback to me) ordered to go into hulldown positions in scattered trees to lay an ambush. Instead, both of them proceeded forward toward my oncoming infantry platoon, then turned right across this platoon's front and continued on, all the while managing to present my two Jumbo's with excellent flank shots. Jumbo 1 and Jumbo 2 did not fail to take immediate advantage of this situation. End result: two dead German AFV's.

There is no hull down command in CM. The fact that the tanks kept driving quite a ways means he must have plotted his movement commands far past the hull down positions. He should not have done that.

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You've never heard music until you've heard the bleating of a gut-shot cesspooler. -Mark IV

[This message has been edited by Vanir (edited 02-10-2001).]

[Tris]

I've read what I could re commands and firing and seeking cover and all that. It's all been perfectly circular and we've gotten pretty much nowhere in the process. Big surprise. To sum it up at the moment: these most recent observations are just that, ingame notes from a gamer as he runs across this stuff during play. Assuming there's a solution I hope it's found and that the company moves on it.

I'm perfectly well aware there's no specific command to go hulldown.

The smoke problem's still there and all too obvious. This is yet another AI issue. The game's full of that and always has been. Again, there might not be a ready solution given AI state of the art. However, I did offer, through an email conversation with Matt some weeks ago, to connect BTS with a friend of mine who develops recreational software and has studied fuzzy-logic theory for some 25 years. This person may have an idea or two which could benefit this project. So far I've received no word back on this overture. I suppose my offer fell on deaf ears. So be it.

Anything else?

[This message has been edited by Tris (edited 02-11-2001).]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Tris:

The bottom line is that the squad did exactly what you told them to do. You simply issued the wrong command for what you intended them to do. The sneak command was useless because the truck could already see your men - there was no point in sneaking past it.

The German AFV could not already see my men. Neither could my men see it. Other units had it spotted so it was "visible" from a bird's perspective.

Once one of your units spots something, it is considered spotted by all units on the board. Your men could "see" it.