81mm vs 75mm

[Wreck]

Steve, your statements in response to Jason's about what the common wisdom is about CM are, in my experience, wrong.

I checked the Rugged Defense page you listed, and I see no way to get axis/allied won/lost there. How did you get that? As for why that is, I suggest that perhaps they are either playing short-75 a lot, or doing a lot of allied attacks. Both of these even the playing field. Any RD members know better?

As for a ladder I do know something about, at TH you would be laughed at in the chat if you asserted that Germans were not superior. And of course, immediately challenged -- we are always looking to pick up a win. I know for a fact, having chatting with them, that the top six players on that ladder think that Germans are easier. These six have a combined total of almost 500 games played. I would imagine anyone who has played more than a handful of games at TH would think the same thing. I have heard several times a player being dissed by someone saying, "oh, he only plays Germans".

There was serious discussion recently of having the Germans play down 10% as a balancing provision. Some people do that. Most disallow SMG infantry and just accept that Germans are easier. I try to play allies against low rated opponents to handicap a bit.

You stated earlier in this thread that you don't cherry pick, and that you play with fixed forces. Is it possible that this has biased your impression of CM? I had the impression you have played most of your CM with canned scenarios or quick battles against other grogs. Well, this is IMO the root of our differences. I am a mechanic. I play a system, and play to win. I cherry pick the best force I can get, every time. There are many other players like me. We all know the Germans are superior to the allies in quick battles.

I invite you to come to TH sometime and get abused. Just look at that guy who recently learned the truth about Sd7/2s. The truth about SMGs is out there, and I would be happy to educate you. 1500 ME, Nov 44, overcast, fixed forces, me Heer. Sd7/2s forbidden . You choose your force and the rest of the QB settings.

[Redwolf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wreck:

I know for a fact, having chatting with them, that the top six players on that ladder think that Germans are easier.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I certainly agree that they are easier, but I am not sure easier means superiour.

Let me illustrate: as the Germans, you have infantry that is usually superiour to Allied infantry when moved with basic tactics, just choose the right distance, maybe with basic supression. Not only the SMG stuff, but MP44-equipped squads like Panzergrenadiere as well. Axis Tanks are for each of the Fionn rules equipped with superiour guns and will be good used against allied armour that tries to mess with the infantry battle.

As the U.S., you have to rely on firepower. You can use your infantry only after an effective supression. And many supression tools for the U.S. come in slow forms, big arty, cheaper Shermans on anything but roads, the 105mm howitzer is almost impossible to move in-game etc. Often your tanks have to doge Axis tanks and gun for many turns, that costs time as well. At the very least, you need to invest thought to not come into armour clashes or if so with proper tank platoon tactics.

Point is, U.S. needs more complex interaction between units which have vastly different timing requirements. That is not easy to do, as my TCP games show.

Of course, the German player shouldn't ignore these support units as well.

But -and that is the point here- if both players neglect them to an equal degree, the Axis come out on top, both for the infantry battle and for the armour clashes and other support is usually wasted insuch games.

As the Commonwealth, you need an even more complicated interaction between units and the infantry is really sub-standard. Please see the currently running new players guide for more of my views on the issue.

Jason's and other people's view on SMG squads come into play here as well. People like Fionn claim these are not a problem, because they use their rifle squads in coordination with other units that will roll all over enemies with too short-ranged firepower.

There are some things really in German favour

- that the infantry killing mechanism is abused for a tracked vehicle with a 37mm gun

- The cheap guns, especially Pueppchens

But both can be removed from a game, even on ladders. And I could list a number of allied units where the Germans have inferiour counterparts.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Wreck,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Steve, your statements in response to Jason's about what the common wisdom is about CM are, in my experience, wrong.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is an issue that is very subjective and, at times, attached to high levels of emotions. I would never even dream of saying that everybody agrees with what I said. In fact, I know for sure many do not. But there are plenty of people here in the US that think the United Nations is secretly potting to take over the US. The numbers of how many people believe this are staggering. But I don't think they are right either

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I checked the Rugged Defense page you listed, and I see no way to get axis/allied won/lost there. How did you get that?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Honestly, I don't know. The last time the issue of "The Germans always win, people who take the Allies are fooling themselves" was explored in detail someone presented stats. I just went up there and took at look at some of the top players and there appears to be a good number of both Allied and German. I don't have the time to do a detailed study.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As for why that is, I suggest that perhaps they are either playing short-75 a lot, or doing a lot of allied attacks. Both of these even the playing field. Any RD members know better?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I also suspect they are using "Fionn's 75 Rule", which incidentally is more designed to curb Allied overuse of 76mm AT vehicles. And in any case, this is an issue that is strictly about Rarity.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As for a ladder I do know something about, at TH you would be laughed at in the chat if you asserted that Germans were not superior.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I went to a KKK rally and suggested that people of color were just as good as those who are white, I would be more than laughed at All I am trying to suggest here is that YOUR perception of the way things are isn't incontrovertible as you wish to think it is. Especially when put 20 years of wargaming experience down on the table and say that wargamers, as a group, always favor German forces in larger numbers than favor anything else. So we are talking about a state of mind that comes into CM with that bias firmly entrenched. If you think that this inherent bias isn't at the core of the "superiority" issue, I have this great bridge that I can let you have cheap

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I know for a fact, having chatting with them, that the top six players on that ladder think that Germans are easier. These six have a combined total of almost 500 games played. I would imagine anyone who has played more than a handful of games at TH would think the same thing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And how many games have these people played as the Allies? 50%? 10%? Sorry, I am not buying this. It is the same thing as asking a NASCAR racer if he likes his car better than the other guy's. You are selecting a sample without scientific methodology.

What is the win/loss record for TH on the whole, attacking/defending? Talking with six guys does not a statistical sample make

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>There was serious discussion recently of having the Germans play down 10% as a balancing provision. Some people do that. Most disallow SMG infantry and just accept that Germans are easier. I try to play allies against low rated opponents to handicap a bit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One word -> Rarity. As I have said over and over again, the Germans *do* have an advantage in choice of weapons to abuse the system with. Because they aren't priced according to how likely/unlikely they should be used, the Cherry Picker has much more freedom with the German forces than with the Allied one. Does this make Cherry Picked games more German baised? Perhaps it does, but it isn't because the pricing system is out of whack like Jason suggests. Rather, it is because there isn't an accounting for Rarity.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You stated earlier in this thread that you don't cherry pick, and that you play with fixed forces. Is it possible that this has biased your impression of CM?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure, just as much as you are biased towards your end of the argument as an ardent Cherry Picker. One can not be unbiased in this debate. However, one can look at the reasons why the other side might have a point. Rarity....

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I had the impression you have played most of your CM with canned scenarios or quick battles against other grogs. Well, this is IMO the root of our differences. I am a mechanic. I play a system, and play to win. I cherry pick the best force I can get, every time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And there it is again... the root of the problem is Cherry Picking, not bargin bin prices. If you played with randomly assigned forces, or realistic forces, might you have a different opinion? I think you might, which is why you choose the Germans without many (if any) rules for your general playing.

It is the selection of forces that is the issue here, not the forces themselves. This is a problem that has been with wargaming since the days of old. We put in options to counter balance Cherry Picking (for both sides, as the Allies have plenty to Cherry Pick from) but if you don't opt to use them, then don't be surprised to find that you can win using some combo of units that are totally unreaslistic. This is true for ANY wargame.

BTW, one of the units we have heard German players whine about to NO end is the Jumbos, as well as Jacksons, Sherman 76s, etc. Cherry Picking cuts both ways. The Germans have more to choose from, so they have a greater degree of flexibility to Cherry Pick around the Allied Cherry Picking.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>There are many other players like me. We all know the Germans are superior to the allies in quick battles.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, we "all" don't know this. You "think" this and have aligned yourself with others that "think" the same way. I have heard many a person come into such discussions saying "I play as the Allies and I win just fine in QBs. In fact, I rather play with the Allies." So I can say for sure it isn't just me.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I invite you to come to TH sometime and get abused. Just look at that guy who recently learned the truth about Sd7/2s. The truth about SMGs is out there, and I would be happy to educate you. 1500 ME, Nov 44, overcast, fixed forces, me Heer. Sd7/2s forbidden . You choose your force and the rest of the QB settings. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uhmmmmm.... how many times have I said that we KNOW that there is a problem with SMG troops and things like the SdKfz7/2? They are both overused and in some cases overly effective. Rarity and some game engine tweaks will fix that, not tweaking their prices up a few points.

And that is where we come back to. Tweaking points is a