Pershings and Self-propelled 155's

[BsChoy]

First I must say after reading all of your postings you all seem to have a very,very good grasp of the details of WWII. From the weapons to the people involved, So I commend all of you after I was thinking WWII was a lost subject with our generation. I digress, I several books I have read on attacking buildings and pill boxes GI's, when availible would role in a 155 and fire point blank at fortifications. As a matter of fact I think the battle of Aachen they used 6 rounds from one to clear a movie theater. The German co inside said, "He believed it a war crime to allow the use of that type of artillery in such a fashion". I know most 155 was called in via spotter but a peek or two of a 155 SP would be rather cool I think. And I know the Pershing didn't see alot of action but one or two of the late battles in 1945 most certainly did see use of the first heavy US tank and its awesome 90mm gun. I have actually seen documentary footage of a pershing hunting a panther in the streets a few weeks before wars end. He won of course scoring 3 direct hits lighting the tank up for 3 days...What do you all think??

[Jarmo]

What's our generation again?

There are people from 15 to 70 (or something) in here...

Anyhoo, I believe 155 in direct fire was pretty rare, although I remember a mention that it was the sure way to kill german AT pillboxes.

It would be cool to have all kinds of artillery pieces availlable though...

Yes, Pershings saw combat and are availlable in CM.

And so is the Super Pershing.. What was the question again? :confused:

[Triumvir]

155in artillery is THE way to kill anything that CM can model... (if you can hit it!)

Talk about long reload times....

[Terence]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Triumvir:

155in artillery is THE way to kill anything that CM can model... (if you can hit it!)

Talk about long reload times.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And if it doesn't hit you first... taking a Priest up against a 75mm at gun pillbox is a good way to lose the Priest. Of course, sp artillery is murderously effective on MG pillboxes and bunkers. A Priest doesn't even need LOS to the firing slit to kill a wooden bunker.......

[ 04-26-2001: Message edited by: Terence ]

[CombinedArms]

I think the book you're referring to that covers SP155's in urban fighting is Doubler's excellent CLOSING WITH THE ENEMY. For whatever reason--probably rarity on the front lines--CM doesn't model Allied SP155's in the game, but the Priest (SP 105) is a pretty good working equivalent. It can knock down any building in the game in a few shots. It won't take out a pillbox, though (Doubler has 155's pulverizing pillboxes with a single shot--IMHO pillboxes have become TOO invulnerable to direct fire in v 1.12. They're almost unkillable except from behind.)

Anyway, as it happens I've recently playtested an excellent huge scenario based on Aachen called "Knock 'em All Down." Watch for its release! They didn't have SP 155s (of course) or Priests in the scenario but I recommended they add the latter. We'll see if the final version includes them (not a spoiler, I hope, since we still don't know.)

[ 04-26-2001: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[Juardis]

According to Ambrose in the book Citizens Soldiers, 155mm direct fire could not/did not destroy a concrete pill box. What it did was concuss (word?) anyone inside it. There was a detailed account of this infantry plt (or co., don't remember which) in the woods during the January attacks and they were pinned by 6 pillboxes. This 155mm inf gun rolls up behind and asks the plt leader if he could use some help. After hugging the crew, he pointed to a pillbox. The gun was loaded, aimed by looking down the barrel, and fired. Direct hit. Cheers. After the smoke cleared, the pillbox was still there. Bummer. Not to worry says the gun leader, the pillbox may still be there, but whoever is inside won't be able to fight. So they line up another pillbox and the gun leader asks the plt leader if he wants to pull the lanyard. Sure he says...then he does it. Same results. They did this to all 6 pillboxes before deciding to leave before the counter battery fire came. The infantry then captured all 6 pillboxes without firing a shot. The Germans inside that were still alive were too dazed to do anything.

As I was reading this I was thinking that that would be cool to try in CM, then I remembered that the allies don't have a 155mm gun . Oh well, it's still a cool story.

[Terence]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CombinedArms:

CM doesn't model Allied SP155's in the game, but the Priest (SP 105) is a pretty good working equivalent. It can knock down any building in the game in a few shots. It won't take out a pillbox, though

[ 04-26-2001: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, it will.

CANNES STRONGPOINT SPOILER AHEAD!!!

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

From the front and from behind if you can manage to get the lumbering Priest back there.

I know this because I did it last night in the scenario Cannes Strongpoint. Using the Priest in that scenario I took out two concrete MG pillboxes from the front (and 3 wooden bunkers from the sides and back.) The targeting line from the Priest to the pillbox read "Kill:Rare" at about 300 meters and "Low" at 150 but I nailed the first one in about 4 shots.

Lucky to take it out that quick maybe, but it was certainly doable.

[ 04-26-2001: Message edited by: Terence ]

[tss]

Jarmo wrote:

Anyhoo, I believe 155 in direct fire was pretty rare, although I remember a mention that it was the sure way to kill german AT pillboxes.

Depends on the type of the pillbox. If it is a flanking-fire pillbox with no openings towards the enemy, it will be very difficult to get the gun in firing position.

The Red Army used 210 mm howitzers firing direct against Finnish pillboxes at Summa. There were two large bunkers ("Poppius" and "Miljoona") and several small.

A direct hit all but destroyed "Poppius" (one half collapsed) that was not designed for flanking fire. However, the only thing that the guns managed to do to the flanking-fire "Miljoona" was to destroy its steel observation posts. The front wall was thick enough to withstand direct hits.

The small pillboxes were wooden and they were destroyed by smaller guns (122 mm howitzers).

- Tommi

[Tanaka]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jarmo:

...Yes, Pershings saw combat and are availlable in CM.

And so is the Super Pershing...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hmm... I was under the impression both these vehicles didn't sow much action, specially the Super Pershing. Aside form shooting old men and babykrauts from the VG Army in April/May 45, where did they sow action ? Did they ever shot a moving German tank ?

Thanks in advance

[Triumvir]

Look, there it goes!

The magical whoosh bird!

[Warmaker]

In general, I don't think generals relish the idea of putting such valuable, heavy artillery up front and risk losing them. But, in combat you have to make do with whatever you've got.

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tanaka:

hmm... I was under the impression both these vehicles didn't sow much action, specially the Super<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not much maybe, but I remember the "ordinary" Pershings even met Tigers on (at least) on occasion. Don't remember where I got that from.. And then there's the Panther thing mentioned in the first post.

I don't know if Super variant saw any fighting. Charles just thought it'd be cool to have around, and since the Pershing was already in, it didn't take too much coding.

As for destroying Pillboxes with 155mm, that's just what I read from somewhere..

[Stalins Organ]

Destroying pillboxes has erquired heavy artillery in al areas.

The Brits used 5.5" guns in direct fire at rages as low as 100m in Burma, and I believe they or the Yanks put an aircraft 5" or 3" rocket motor on a 100lb aerial bomb and launched it from a simple trough as another expedient in the east too - again range about 100-150m, and not very accurate, but cheap!

[BsChoy]

As far as the Citizen Soldier from Ambrose goes the actual phrase was "whoever isn't dead inside has his brains scrambled and can't fight". People have, do, and will continue to die from such hits from a 6.1" gun even in concrete pillboxes....concussion crushes lungs and causes brain damage...people died.

[Michael Emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike the bike:

The Brits...or the Yanks put an aircraft 5" or 3" rocket motor on a 100lb aerial bomb and launched it from a simple trough as another expedient in the east too - again range about 100-150m, and not very accurate, but cheap!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yikes! :eek: I wouldn't want to be the one to pull the lanyard on that one!

Can you say "possibly unstable in flight"?

Michael