ignoring reality, would cm's units be considered balanced?

[russellmz]

if you ignore the reality of wwii weapons for a moment, would cm be considered a balanced game?

i mean, say if the data for all the weapons were the same but they changed the names of the units weapons, etc, and made it a fictional sci-fi setting, made no mention of its wwii roots, and then put the game on the market, would players be complaining about how the martians(axis) have so many bettter armored weapons than the venutians(allies)? and declare that the game was unplayable because of that descrepency?

i mean would you play a game where most of your side's weapons were useless against the enemy's biggest tanks?

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russellmz,

Self-Proclaimed Keeper for Life of the Sacred Unofficial FAQ.

"They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush

"They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show

[109 Gustav]

I think it would be pretty balanced as it is. If I was going to make it more balanced, I would give the Allies a better variety of AT weapons, including panzerfausts. I would make the Allied tanks a bit faster, and give the German tanks slower turrets. I would give the Germans a 50mm armed light tank so they could go head to head against stuarts. I would give the Allies a better HMG, and a much better variety of infantry, including SMG squads and an equivalent to the Motorised squads.

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Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat.

But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

The Last Defense- Mods, Scenarios, and more!

[kump]

Ughhhh... I don't get your point. Are you thinking the German side is too powerful? I used to believe that myth from other games, but I just lost a Panther frontally by a Sherman 76 just a few minutes ago. Many of my past games have been Allied and I certainly didn't feel like rolling into a corner of the map and cowering because the other side had super duper war machines with bigger guns than mine.

I've learned a new respect for Allied tanks. I've never experienced the weakness of the German tanks before. Slow turrets and flanks that will fall to a 37mm! And even the impervious super tanks die on some frontal shots. Range kills. Even Goliath shakes when the little ones get close.

I've used the numbers and fast turret speeds of the allied tanks to good effect. Those martian machines aren't near as tough as you may want to believe.

[chrisl]

Originally posted by 109 Gustav:

I think it would be pretty balanced as it is. If I was going to make it more balanced, I would give the Allies a better variety of AT weapons, including panzerfausts.

bazookas, PIATs, rifle grenades(not that great)

I would make the Allied tanks a bit faster,

Hellcat (though Churchills are slower than molasses)

and give the German tanks slower turrets.

They can't get any slower without being turretless, and then you've got the various german TDs.

I would give the Germans a 50mm armed light tank so they could go head to head against stuarts.

Puma--it's not a tank, but the US .50 cal won't penetrate the front so in a duel with a Stuart it's whoever scores a hit with the 50mm first.

I would give the Allies a better HMG,

I just had a crummy US HT armed only with MGs take out a crummier German HT armed with a 75 mm gun at about 500 m. I'll keep the M2!! The German HT turned tail and ran--never got a shot, then it was knocked out.

and a much better variety of infantry, including SMG squads and an equivalent to the Motorised squads.

British Para and Glider squads. I'm playing an op where I have them for defense, and the firepower is pretty impressive--two battles in a row I've devastated the attacker with minimal losses.

Just my way of saying I think it's pretty well balanced.

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"If you can taste the difference between caviar on a cracker and ketchup on a Kit-Kat while blindfolded, you have not had enough aquavit to be ready for lutefisk." (stolen from some web page about lutefisk)

[This message has been edited by chrisl (edited 03-05-2001).]

[russellmz]

Originally posted by kump:

Ughhhh... I don't get your point. Are you thinking the German side is too powerful

nah, i got no probs with the game.

i just was reading a games article where one guy said game balance was important in a strategy game and that made me think of cm...

i was just thinking that if this wasn't a wwii game, most people would think cm was not very balanced at first sight. unless you know how to use allies/venutians, it would look like the germs/martians were too powerful.

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russellmz,

Self-Proclaimed Keeper for Life of the Sacred Unofficial FAQ.

"They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush

"They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show

[lcm1947]

I guess unlike a lot of you I play against the computer. I take turns playing one side then the other and I think it's balanced perfectly. I always win. But that's another story. I am very pleased and actually happy about how realistic the game is, as far as I'm concerned anyway. Now I'am not as smart as a lot of you but I have read what I consider alot about WWII and I feel the game is damn near perfect or at least as perfect as can be expected. Yeah, I hate having my tank turn to shoot at a damned crew member when an enemy tank shoots up smoke but hey, like the man said earlier, what's the tank to do, just wait. Well, after saying that, yeah I guess I do but that is about the only fault I see with the game. That by the way that was an interesting question. Why do you ask if I may ask?

[109 Gustav]

Chrisl- yes, those are all examples of what I'm thinking of. I also think that it's pretty balanced, but I was just rooting around in my head for ways to make it even better.

AT weapons- I was mostly thinking of panzerfausts. Yeah, there's rifle grenades, but I can only recall killing one tank with them. (Rear hit on a shocked panther in a huge patch of scattered trees) To balance it out for the Germans, I would include a panzershreck at the platoon level, although this is already true with volkstrum and fallschirmjaeger.

Tanks- I mean, make the most common allied tanks, ie the sherms, faster. By "slower turret" I was thinking of Panthers at the time. That way they'd be very, very vulnerable from the flank.

Yes, the puma is good, but I was talking about a tank.

For a better HMG, I meant a better infantry killer. The .50 isn't the best gun for this.

For the better variety of inf, yes I love british paras. However, one excellent type of squad isn't variety. For the ultimate balance I would have Allied SMG squads for melee fighting, mountain troops (can't spell gibigswhatever) for close range fighting and motorised squads for the LMGs and MP44s.

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Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat.

But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

The Last Defense- Mods, Scenarios, and more!

[This message has been edited by 109 Gustav (edited 03-05-2001).]

[kump]

Yep, balance is very important.

This is one of the reasons that surprises me about CM. As you pointed out, on the surface, you would think a few superior German weapons would unbalance the game. But surprisingly, it doesn't. And its historical to boot.

I'm glad BTS went for accuracy. You want perfect balance, then use the editor and create your version of a "balanced" scenario.

Frankly, I'm having a blast with the historical unbalanced scenarios, as is usually the case in real life. No attacker wants balance. The most exciting games are those I'm the weaker and I still pull the rabbit out of the hat. What an addictive game this is...

[Olle Petersson]

Of course it's well balanced.

Have you ever played "Ogre" (or the follow-up "G.E.V.") from Steve Jackson Games?

There you have a conventional military force fighting a single (or in rare cases a pair of) Ogre, a fully automatic Übertank extraordinaire...

Like going after a Maus on steroids (fair mobility and fast turret) with some infantry, Stuarts and medium artillery.

This usually turns into some pretty balanced scenarios.

Most computerised fantasy/sci-fi wargames around have different properties for the nations/races involved. (Starcraft, Warcraft, Command&Conquer, ...)

Cheers

Olle

[Mattias]

An odd question, ignore the reality or of the real world but instead apply the reality of C&C type RTS games?

Anyone with minute experience in wargaming knows that the units at hand only play a marginal part in making a scenario balanced.

So, yes, every well balanced CM scenario is balanced. And, no, every unbalanced CM scenario is unbalanced.

M.

[CavScout]

Strictly speaking, no they are not balanced. Historical they seem to be and that's good enough for me.

[Cleavis]

i say that BTS should go for accuracy every time, if i want unrealistic weapons balance, ill go play close combat. BTS: you guys are doing a great job, keep it up with CM2!!!

[russellmz]

oh, i want realism as much as possible as well.

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russellmz,

Self-Proclaimed Keeper for Life of the Sacred Unofficial FAQ.

"They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush

"They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show

[Time]

Allied tanks aren't good enough for you eh? I just played a quick battle and the allied tanks were invisible! I realised I was facing some stealthy enemies when one of my AT guns managed to destroy something invisible causing it to burn. It turned out that all the allied vehicles were invisible, but my units could still target them on their own. To add insult to injury my own vehicles were also invisible and i couldn't use them. So I think the allied tanks are actually unbalanced, being invisible and all.

[Guy w/gun]

I think if you wan't to see if CMBO would be balanced in the "what if" scenario you pointed out, it's best to compare it to a balanced game that does include atleast a little bit of tactics.

Starcraft fits the bill. It has recieved numerous awards, one being from the Academy of Interactive Arts and Sciences (AIAS) mainly on the basis of it's balance. No matter what race you play as, you have equal chance to trounce the others.

I could do a lengthy comparison of StarCraft to CM in terms of balance here, but I won't. In short, I don't think CM is as balanced. It's more along the lines of CC, or CC Red Alert.

Technically CC games are kinda balanced, but only if you utilize all the units to there most effectiveness. If you just play casually and use only a few units, the Brotherhood of Nod/Soviets will always seem to win. You can win with the allies/GDI ONLY if you utilize every unit exactly how they're supposed to be used.

I feel this is pretty similar to CM. You can win and win well with the allies, but your tactics have to be sound and you have to be more knoledgable on average about the many allied units. On the other hand, any bafoon can use King Tigers and Hordes of SMG squads and rush forward and destroy an unskilled allied player.