NIGHT mission friendly fire algorithm needs tweaking?

[Binkie]

Just played Bruyeres TCP/IP as allies, enjoyed it, Wild Bill does it again!

But I have to take issue with some of my troops actions. On at least 3 occasions, different squads were engaged in direct fire fights with enemies no more than 60m in front of them. They turned their backs to known-position German soldiers who were firing rifles and machine guns at them, so that they could shoot their own men who were walking in a building in a non-combat area 100m to their rear. These friendly troops were simply moving, not even firing.

I can accept men getting jumpy and misidentifying troops in front of them, even to their flanks, even to their rear if they were in a far forward position. But directly behind them in friendly-held turf, while already fighting for their lives? Maybe I'm missing something, I'm not much of a war historian, but it just doesn't seem realistic.

There's been lots of talk on the forum about why won't my unit shoot at my manual target, he keeps auto-retargeting this other guy who is shooting at him...or, my tank won't stay facing the way I want, he keeps targeting that Stuart...and the answers come flooding in: of course he's targeting the guy who's shooting at him, wouldn't you? That's the known threat! Have to deal with that first.

I understand and agree with this logic. It just didn't seem to be applied in the "misidentification" fuzzy logic routine. Does this need to be fine-tuned?

[Jasper]

You and I are probably the only two people on the planet that care about night tactics and CM. We're probably better off considering 'night' as 'predawn' or 'just before night' and getting on with our lives. And leave the night to the bats.

[Peterk]

I don't know...it depends really. If I thought i had the guys 60 feet in front of me well supressed and I saw some fresh enemy troops moving in the open 100m away, I would divert my attention to try and catch them.

Night actions are supposed to be chaotic. You'll see lots of things happening you won't like. PArt of the fun.

p.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Jasper:

You and I are probably the only two people on the planet that care about night tactics and CM.

Steve and Charles might disagree.

I just converted the Squad Leader scenario "Dornot Watermark" to CM status. The night vision in CM makes it hard to replicate this one - since the screening force on the opposite side of the river will never be able to shoot across the water. Since all spotting is universal, firing at gunflashes seems to be out - or can a unit fire beyond the basic "night vision range" at a unit that has recently fired?

I would like to see night combat improve as the CM series continues to grow. I wouldn't confuse respecting BTS' need to work on CM2 rather than tweaking CM1 for the next ten years as not caring - I would hope most people are getting the idea that making issues over CM1 is not going to get them anywhere. So silence on the part of others on these scores does not mean you are the only people that care.

You also must keep in mind that night combat was, as far as I know, relatively rare and as Peter points out, chaotic.

As for your example - I will agree that on the face of it, it is qutie annoying. It reminds me of a night exercise I spent as an infantryman - our platoon commander would come to our OP every hour and remind us to stay alert - "this is the perfect time for them to attack." He said it every hour on the hour until it quite lost its meaning! Bad leaders will do stuff like that to you.

A Canadian officer named Blackburn talked about nighttime in Normandy in his book The Guns of Normandy; basically everyone in the unit he was attached to (Royal Regiment of Canada) was scared out of their mind at night, and anything that moved got shot at REGARDLESS OF WHERE THEY WERE. It's not just 6 year olds who are scared of the dark...

Just some random thoughts. You say you're not a historian; as an amateur one I thought I would throw this out. You may have a point - I've only been on two night exercises as an infantryman, and it was relatively bright with a good moon, snow and cloud to reflect light. But having read Blackburn's book makes it hard to make any snap judgements about how jumpy men who have gone sleepless for 3 or 4 days would be...

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CANUCK: Clothing, Equipping and Employing the Canadian Soldier in Combat Mission

[badinfo]

Try to find a copy of Blue on Blue, good read on friendly fire through history.

MacDonald's Company Commander also has some night time FF incidents in it.

Even though they are engaged frontally, if they are nervous enough i could see troops freaking out to hear folks coming in from behind, especially if they cannot see them.

Weird things happened in the dark. Countless tales of walking up to enemy soldiers and talking to them only to ffind out they were the enemy, driving in the middle of enemy convoys, Russian soldiers walking up to a German tank and asking for a light lol.

[Binkie]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I would like to see night combat improve as the CM series continues to grow. I wouldn't confuse respecting BTS' need to work on CM2 rather than tweaking CM1 for the next ten years as not caring - I would hope most people are getting the idea that making issues over CM1 is not going to get them anywhere.

Yes, my complaint was definitely with an eye to future versions, not a demand for another patch. And I appreciate everyone's feedback here on source material and stories they have heard.

Truth be known, perhaps some of those Germans were suppressed at the time my squads rotated away from them, but they didn't stay suppressed with a nice fat opportunity presented to them! It was a bit frustrating.

[Guest barrold713]

I have not played that scenario with the latest version yet, but it was a lot of fun before though. In another called 'Augen Zu!' I discovered the same sort of thing happening and I had to manually target much more than normal.

I think I'll go play WBW's little battle and see if it turns out differently than before.

Always something new with this game.

BDH

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"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb discussing what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote"

- Ben Franklin

[lcm1947]

I enjoy playing night games myself because of the strange things that your troops do. I would like to see CM2 come out with some sort of flare action. I'm not really up on WWII but I assume they used flares. It would really add a lot to a night game, put a whole new angle to the game.

[Bullethead]

An interesting thing about CM night battles, at least with green troops, is that there seems to be a lot of wild firing. By this I mean a squad can inflict casualties on nearby friendly units even if it never targets them directly but is always aiming at an enemy unit and no enemy units ever fire a shot.

I agree, however, that CM's modeling of night combat could be improved in many ways. And I see nothing wrong with pointing out specifics from CM1, because even if CM1 has seen it's last patch, we can always hope the improvements will show up in CM2. Thus, I see (and I'm sure BTS feels the same way) suggestions for improving CM1 as actually suggestions for CM2. AFAIK, CM2 will use the same basic engine as CM1, so CM1 tweak discussions are relevant to CM2.

That said, the 2 big things I'd like to see in way of improvement to night fighting are battlefield illumination and the ability to use direct fire weapons beyond LOS range. The latter also has applicability to the sadly lacking defensive virtues of MGs, so is worth doing for its own sake

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-Bullethead

In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria.

[Binkie]

Originally posted by Bullethead:

...and the ability to use direct fire weapons beyond LOS range.

Now that you mention it, this is something I'd like to see for all weather and lighting conditions. As long as you're not trying to to cheat an obstacle, I think you should be able to fire off into the gloom, at a substantial distance accuracy penalty, of course.

[Chupacabra]

Originally posted by Bullethead:

the ability to use direct fire weapons beyond LOS range.

The trouble with this, as I see it, is that you as the player can see the entire map. For example, you could tell your gunners to shoot at a house that they'd have no idea was there. Even if there was an accuracy penalty, I think this could produce some very strange results.

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Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super

[This message has been edited by Chupacabra (edited 03-04-2001).]

[John Kelly]

Whilst playing operations, I usually take the opportunity to avoid combat during the night. I am currently play-testing an original operation with a friend, and I have successfully avoided an evening battle with the Americans. Fortunately, Battalion released a small reserve which may sustain me until my reinforcements arrive. Without the break during the night time hours, I would not have even had another battle. Come to think of it, I have never accepted an evening engagement. So, I don't really know what it's like. Cheers, John

[82nd Airborne]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Steve and Charles might disagree.

I just converted the Squad Leader scenario "Dornot Watermark" to CM status. The night vision in CM makes it hard to replicate this one - since the screening force on the opposite side of the river will never be able to shoot across the water. Since all spotting is universal, firing at gunflashes seems to be out - or can a unit fire beyond the basic "night vision range" at a unit that has recently fired?

I would like to see night combat improve as the CM series continues to grow. I wouldn't confuse respecting BTS' need to work on CM2 rather than tweaking CM1 for the next ten years as not caring - I would hope most people are getting the idea that making issues over CM1 is not going to get them anywhere. So silence on the part of others on these scores does not mean you are the only people that care.

You also must keep in mind that night combat was, as far as I know, relatively rare and as Peter points out, chaotic.

As for your example - I will agree that on the face of it, it is qutie annoying. It reminds me of a night exercise I spent as an infantryman - our platoon commander would come to our OP every hour and remind us to stay alert - "this is the perfect time for them to attack." He said it every hour on the hour until it quite lost its meaning! Bad leaders will do stuff like that to you.

A Canadian officer named Blackburn talked about nighttime in Normandy in his book The Guns of Normandy; basically everyone in the unit he was attached to (Royal Regiment of Canada) was scared out of their mind at night, and anything that moved got shot at REGARDLESS OF WHERE THEY WERE. It's not just 6 year olds who are scared of the dark...

Just some random thoughts. You say you're not a historian; as an amateur one I thought I would throw this out. You may have a point - I've only been on two night exercises as an infantryman, and it was relatively bright with a good moon, snow and cloud to reflect light. But having read Blackburn's book makes it hard to make any snap judgements about how jumpy men who have gone sleepless for 3 or 4 days would be...

Hey I just went to your site...fantastic! Salute.

[Binkie]

Originally posted by Chupacabra:

The trouble with this, as I see it, is that you as the player can see the entire map. For example, you could tell your gunners to shoot at a house that they'd have no idea was there.

I'm guessing that many engagements from the CM time period were fought over known terrain, terrain that one or both sides had already seen, occupied for a while, or perhaps even done battle on. That's how I justify the full knowledge of the map, and it seems realistic most of the time. So I don't see a problem with firing at a house you cannot see "yet", if your HQ is telling you that it's there.

Plus, there is built-in discouragement here...if you can't see the location, how would you know that there are troops there and you're not just wasting ammo? Even if the location is of extreme tactical importance and you want to hose it down for good measure, the accuracy penalty would make this a tough decision, in my opinion. But perhaps the choice should be ours.

Has anyone heard or read of of this happening during the war? Orders to shoot beyond LOS for general suppression or morale effect?

[Bullethead]

Binkie said:

Has anyone heard or read of of this happening during the war? Orders to shoot beyond LOS for general suppression or morale effect?

Sure, it happened all the time, especially for MGs (which had been doing it since WW1).

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-Bullethead

In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria.