cm2/partisan warfare

[mbtaber]

I was just wondering if partisan warfare will be an aspect of cm2.I believe that army group center had a difficult time in the area of the pripet marshes. would be an interesting scenario.

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Capt. Klink

[Major Tom]

The question is, would a battalion sized game based on squads, artillery and armour play partisan warfare very well? These battles will invariably pit squad against squad, with the Germans occasionally having some armour and artillery. Militaraly organized Partisans like in Yugoslavia weren't very prevailant, other than in Warsaw, on the Eastern front. Sure, they were 'organized' but didn't operate in very large formations.

[Guest tero]

The "partisan warfare" does not have to be restricted to irregular forces alone. Regular forces conducted various operations that involved infiltration and ambushes quite near the frontlines. Or the frontline was an abstract line on the map and forces from both sides operated from bases and strong points some way behind the "frontline".

The type of operations are not outside the CM/CM2 scope.

[Tiger]

I'd rather not see partisans at the expense of something else, which is probably what would have to happen to get them.

Also, there were partisans in France but we don't see them in CMBO.

This subject of partisans comes up every so often. If you add partisans you should also add torture, mutilations, hangings and summary executions. Don't forget to add non-partisan civilians too.

JMTCW,

John

[tss]

tero:

Regular forces conducted various operations that involved infiltration and ambushes quite near the frontlines.

For example, there were several partisan brigades that operated in Karelia. The brigades had bases in Soviet territory (near Belomorsk, at Puutoinen (whose Russian name I have forgotten)) and they conducted short and long raids against Finnish and German bases (and in several cases against civilian villages). The brigades were divided into several detachments that had ~100 men each.

The most famous partisan operation in Karelia was the Summer campaign of colonel Grigorejev's partisan brigade in '42. About 700 partisans were sent to attack Finnish army corps HQ at Porajärvi, but they failed to reach the target. Instead, there was a two-month long pursuit battle in the wilderness before the remnants of the brigade, ~70 men, managed to return to their own side by crossing the Lake Jolmajärvi.

The Grigorejev's partisans were well-trained and determined but their unit was way too large for a behind-lines operation, since 700 men can't move in forest without leaving clear trails. The worst part of the operation plans was that the brigade was supposed to forage most of its food from the forest. The man who gave orders for that campaign should have been court-martialled for sending the brigade to a suicide mission.

The fate of Grigorejev's brigade is interesting because there are easily accessible (for someone who can read Finnish) written sources from both sides ("Sissiprikaatin tuho", Tikkanen; "Raappanan miehet", Palaste; "Korpi ei tunne armoa", Dmitri Gusarov).

- Tommi

[Guest tero]

I think that what muddles things up is the use of the term "partisan".

It has connotations that invoke emotional responces not directly related to the subject. But what would be a better term ? LRRP ?

[tss]

tero:

I think that what muddles things up is the use of the term "partisan".

The problem is that those units were officially called partisans both during the war and afterwards, so confusion is pretty much inevitable.

- Tommi

[Guest tero]

>The problem is that those units were officially called partisans both during the war and afterwards, so confusion is pretty much inevitable.

Agreed. But if the generic term for the type of warfare would be guerilla warfare. Which does not apply very well when we are talking about purely regular troops doing LRRP type missions. Or strikes against point targets within the combat zone, which in turn can not be defined clearly because of the prevailing conditions.

I'm getting a headache.

[Major Tom]

Lets say that 'Partisans' did work in large numbers in a wide variety of theatres for a long duration or period of war. The next problem that occurs, is, that these partisans will most likely be NOT equipped with Tanks, Trucks, Halftracks, Air and Artillery Support. They would probably be lucky if they had mortors and machine guns. Against them would be a formation either totally suprised (like a German/Finnish HQ unit) or totally superior (like a German/Finnish attack group). I am not sure how battles based on an ambush would work in CM. Since both parties know that the enemy is out there, suprise will be inevitably lost! It would be just a matter for the Axis force to find the Partisan force without blundering on their Ambush.

Now, the Polish Home Guard is another story. They were relatively well equipped and organized, plus, city warfare does not require tanks, artillery, etc.. in order to inflict massive casualties in a CM type game.

[Skipper]

Major Tom:

Contrary to what you say, partisan units of batallion and even regimental strength were not rare at all, rather a norm, due to several huge cauldrons of 1941, and to extermination campaign nazies carried out on captured territories, particularly in Eastern Ukraine, Russia and Belorussia.

There was a lot of behind the lines activity by regular troops, the most famous example being the raid of Kovpak's brigade (about the only effective cavalry formation of WWII, by the way).

And hey, you are even wrong on the issue of tanks. Some of the larger units had their own armor and artillery. Not much, of course.

Although, the most effective partisan units were small ones, they did an awful lot of damage, mostly by sabotaging railroads and supply centers.

As for the CM, this engine is in fact quite appropriate for partisan warfare.

[CavScout]

At what point do these "partisan" units become "partisans"? Some sound like detached or cut-off regular military units....

[The Commissar]

Major Tom,

I see several different ways to handle an "ambush" or "partisan" type scenario in CM.

1) Make the objective of the ambushed party to get off the map. This would require going along some sort of route in a given amount of time, with points based on how little casualties you take. I think we already have something like this in CM.

2) In a regular battle, have the option for the Soviet player to buy special partisan units. These could come as reinforcement I suppose from behind the enemy lines. Or they could be deployed behind enemy lines in a QB. Points would be expanded as usual, and a limit would be placed on the amount you can purchase. This would achieve the "ambush" effect quite well, seeing as how the enemy doesnt know if you purchased partisan units.

#2 leads to some questions Im not one to answer, however. Mainly, did partisans work in some coordination with regular army units, or were they completely seperate? If they did, then purchasing them as units would be realistic. If they didnt, it wouldnt be.

Comments?

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[Guest Mikey D]

If CM1 can field crippled and aged Volkstrum (spelling?) units I don't see why a CM2 Soviet force list can't include similar Partisan units. No armor, no heavy weapon, light arms & explosive charges only for weaponry? Perhaps even dress them in civilian garb? Great for small scale hit & run fights. Just a thought.

[ASL Veteran]

Partisans did in fact work in coordination with regular army formations - in the Soviet Union anyway. Paratroops and Partisans would work together to prep the way for river crossings for example.

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When we were in the Bocage country we were assaulted by them Tigers ... you know what I mean by assaulted huh? WELL I MEAN ASSAULTED!!!!

[The Commissar]

Originally posted by ASL Veteran:

Partisans did in fact work in coordination with regular army formations - in the Soviet Union anyway. Paratroops and Partisans would work together to prep the way for river crossings for example.

Great, so my #2 would be realistic, at least. How would it affect game balance, however? How much points would be allowed for partisans? I think it should depend on the size of your regular forces. some 15-25% of your total forces could be partisan.

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[ASL Veteran]

The way I see it .... the only reason you would not include Partisans in CM2 would be that Steve and/or Charles are just not interested in them. That's cool ... we all have our preferences. The only practical difficulties would be the armament for a Partisan squad. There is no 'standard' load out for a Partisan squad therefore you would have to have a wide variety of squads to choose from. Some with an LMG, some without, some with lots of SMGs, some with nothing but rifles etc. I think that this issue is the only thorny one regarding Partisans. How do you arm them and how many squad types would you have to choose from. Also, what is the TO&E of a Partisan Brigade?

There is no standard TO&E for a Partisan Brigade, so Steve and Charles would once again have to improvise and they don't like to improvise. Can Partisans be modeled at this scale? Yes! Would there be interesting scenarios to play involving Partisans? Yes! Would it be difficult to decide what to arm a Partisan squad with and how to create a TO&E for a Partisan battalion? Yes! Do they have platoons? Who knows. Do they have battalions? Who knows. Anyway, ASL could model them because it didn't have strict formations in the unit purchase screen - if you wanted one squad, just buy one squad. CM is different though in that some form of structure would need to be imposed upon an organization that inherently has very little structure. Until some structure could be imposed, I'm not sure they will ever make it into the game.

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When we were in the Bocage country we were assaulted by them Tigers ... you know what I mean by assaulted huh? WELL I MEAN ASSAULTED!!!!

[Brer Pinkey]

As to the partisan weapons slection of a squad/unit. The got their stuff ad hoc, and so should a player. It should not be 'pickable' by unit type. If you get 3 squads, you should get units of random size, say three squads each between 7 and 10 men, with random weapons based on an average of what they are facing (scavange) and what their regular troops are using. I would think that ammo loadouts would vary too. It should be rather like the third or fourth battle in an operation, you don't necessarily have everything your TO&E says you should.

Just MHO

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"What are we going to do tonight Brain?"

"The same thing we do every night Pinkey... We're going to take over Europe!"

[This message has been edited by Brer Pinkey (edited 02-21-2001).]

[Skipper]

> Would it be difficult to decide what to

> arm a Partisan squad with and how to

> create a TO&E for a Partisan battalion?

Why bother? Give me a basic infantry squad armed with 5 rifles and 5 MP40s, plus selection of MGs and mortars, plus a generic "HQ" (can be a platoon HQ, too); dress them all in civilian clothes - and I am all set. Doesn't reflect the rich historical variety, but hey, this is a game.

> Do they have platoons? Who knows.

Yes, they do.

> Do they have battalions? Who knows.

No, they don't.

Batallion is about the size of biggets partisan formations, and they basically were not devised under any sort of TO&E - whoever comes with whatever comes was the only rule. However, squads and platoons were normally used as a basic organisation (after all, many partisan commanders or XOs were regular military).

> At what point do these "partisan" units

> become "partisans"?

Not that many partisan units in fact started as cut-off military units. Most were established by locals. Cut-off military units would normally try to reach friendly positions if at all possible, at least that is what they were ordered to do.

[Sirocco]

"Within a month of the German invasion detailed instructions were given for partisan detachments to be formed to sabotage bridges, roads and railway lines and blow up German supply dumps. A regional organisation was to be established in areas already overrun... Eventually a special department in the Central Committee was set up to deal with partisan affairs, with special cells at the Front and army level."

"At first the groups had difficulty in reaching the minimum viable strength which was fifty men, but by the spring of 1942 in some areas where the front line had broken down detachments numbering thousands were formed into regiments and brigades."

"Lightly armed security divisions (Sicherungsdivisionen) were formed to safeguard the road and rail links upon which the German forward troops depended for their supplies. Some of these divisions were to play an important role in Belorussia in the summer of 1944."

"By the summer of 1944, the partisan movement had reached its peak of development and efficiency. Post-war accounts state that in Belorussia there were 374,000 partisans divided among 199 brigades and that they had in addition some 400,000 reserves to call upon."

"The aim of the two inter-related operations, 'Regenschauer' and 'Fruhlingsfest', was to destroy the area of the Usachi Partisan Republic to the west of Polotsk, Vitebsk and Orsha. The partisans were holding strong positions behind minefields and even had substantial air support..."

Hitler's Greatest Defeat, Paul Adair

Well, we already have Sicherungsdivisionen, in CMBO, and it wouldn't be the Eastern Front without partisans, now would it..?

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"He belongs to a race which has coloured the map red, and all he wants are the green fields of England..."

- Joe Illingworth, Yorkshire Post War Correspondent

[Doodlebug]

I find myself in agreement with many of the comments made in the posts above. Indeed, as far as I'm aware, the partisans could be organised into "brigades" of upto 1000 men. However they always came off second best when faced by even the second and third rate German security units in straight stand up fights. As with all guerilla movements they are most effective when they melt away from opposition and only strike at the enemy at times of their choosing and at points of enemy weakness. I would vigorously oppose their inclusion if it necessitates the diminution of any other aspect of conventional warfare. I can forsee that the very nebulous nature of their activities would require a great deal of programming and I for one would rather see that effort concentrated elsewhere,for example, on multi turreted vehicles or amphibious vehicles or operations.

[Guest Mikey D]

CM unit do not necessarily have to be capable of brigade level combat. The tiny but fun "Saving Private Ryan" scenario shows that.

Small scale no-front-line scenarios involving Partisans versus security squads sounds fun.

[Skipper]

> However they always came off second best

> when faced by even the second and third

> rate German security units in straight

> stand up fights.

Sorry, pal, but this is nonsense. Whenever a partisan has to do "straight stand up fight", this means a fight against vastly superior enemy.

In pure combat capability, some of the smaller partisan teams were above your average special force, if you see what I mean. Others were just a bunch of peasants, and there was a full range in between.

Speaking of larger formations, Usachi Republic was already mentioned. Partisan controlled region that existed for months on end. I've mentioned Kovpak's brigade, too.In CM terms, both can be classified as Veteran, with healthy dose of Crack (pun unintended).

[The Commissar]

I like all the stuff being said. Wonder when BTS will choose to make an apprearance and tell us it cant be included?

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[CavScout]

Originally posted by Skipper:

> However they always came off second best

> when faced by even the second and third

> rate German security units in straight

> stand up fights.

Sorry, pal, but this is nonsense. Whenever a partisan has to do "straight stand up fight", this means a fight against vastly superior enemy.

In pure combat capability, some of the smaller partisan teams were above your average special force, if you see what I mean. Others were just a bunch of peasants, and there was a full range in between.

What he said rings true. Partisans did not fair well against front-line combat units.

To stimulate what the partisans on the East front did you'd have to include not only the partisan units but the German REMF units they generally attacked. Can't wait for that... "Let's play a QB Partisan Raid, I'll be Soviet partisans you can be the combined REMF unit with the cook squads, the rail workers, the mail handelers, and the folks not good enough to fight with a line unit." Should be fun....

[Doodlebug]

I draw primarily upon "Stalingrad to Berlin", Earl Ziemke, US Army Centre of Military History, for my information regards to partisan operations. Partisan operations florished in the Northern and Central sectors due to the advantages of terrain (Pripyat Marshes and so forth)and in these areas groups were able to form and make a contribution during the winter counter offensive of '41/'42. In the more exposed steppe areas in the South partisan operations were always more restricted. To quote from one security operation undertaken by the Germans in Feb '43 "Kugelblitz" in the Vitebsk region. The partisans numbering in the region of 5000 men organised into brigades had established fortified positions and operated their own airfields. In a operation using 2 security divisions the area was first cordoned off and the cleared. 3700 casualties were claimed by the Germans although how many were actually civilians cannot be known. If this type of operation does not represent CM games then I don't know what does. Before the outbreak of war the Soviet authorities placed great faith in the concept of partisan war and a spontaneous rising of the people in support of Communism. This did not occur and post war the exploits of the partisans was actively suppressed. The only reward many partisans received upon the advance of the Red army was forced conscrition.