tss Posted January 13, 2001 Share Posted January 13, 2001 Big Time Software: If anybody has documentation on standard "impact" HE fuzes (i.e. not proximity fuzes or the like) please post it to this BBS for further discussion. I went through my collection of artillery manuals (quite small, this far, only 2.5). The only relevant reference was in "Tykkimiehen opas" ("Artillerist's Guide"), 1932. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> The main parts of an impact fuze are 1. case that holds the fuze together. This is screwed on top of the shell 2. working parts. The most important are detonator, striking pin, and intermediate charge. 3. safety parts that prevent the shell from exploding during handling and and firing so that the shell doesn't explode inside the barrel or immediately after leaving it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> There's also a shematic picture that has a part called "varmistusjousi" ("safety spring") but its working mechanism is not explained. Apparently it holds the striking pin in position until firing. I would guess that the shell acceleration will release the spring and allow striking pin to move. In that case, the spring wouldn't actually prevent nearby detonations. In any case, Finnish artillery units suffered barrel detonations and sometimes rounds exploded just after leaving the barrel, so in any case the safety spring was not completely reliable. - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvet Posted January 28, 2001 Share Posted January 28, 2001 This just happened to me AGAIN. My wespe took itself out with the first shot it fired in the game. It moved to the corner of a building to cover itself from enemy armor while allowing it to fire on a group of enemy infantry. It rotates to fire on infantry and puts its gun barrel almost against the building and then fires, knocking itself out. It was not buttoned up, and was of regular quality. Now tell me these guys aren't going to notice that the end of their gun is almost against the building. I find it hard to believe. I believe that there are LOS and LOF problems with buildings. Not too long ago someone posted screen shots of a zook or shrek firing right through the middle of a large building and hitting a tank on the other side. Supposedly this isn't supposed to be possible, but it is. And AFV's are blowing themselves up all too frequently (way more than I believe is realistic, although admittedly I have no sources to back that up) because of LOS/LOF issues. ------------------ Craig "Only a madman would consider the possibility of war between the two states (France and Germany), for which, from our point of view, there is no rational or moral ground." - Chancellor Adolf Hitler, Oct. 14, 1933 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Rock Posted January 29, 2001 Share Posted January 29, 2001 Originally posted by Subvet: I believe that there are LOS and LOF problems with buildings. Steve has already answered this: Sometimes you can see a LOS line draw through a building (or hill, thick woods, or any terrain feature). This is part of your unit's "tracking" the target. It doesn't mean that it can fire at it right then and there. This is a necessary feature so that if an enemy unit goes out of LOS for just a second or two the friendly unit won't stop targeting it. But again, it can not shoot if it doesn't have a line of fire, which is different than the line of sight. The cause of this problem is that the TacAI is not "smart" enough to understand that the shot is too close to be safe at that distance. Hopefully this will be improved upon in CM2. Noted already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvet Posted January 29, 2001 Share Posted January 29, 2001 "Sometimes you can see a LOS line draw through a building (or hill, thick woods, or any terrain feature). This is part of your unit's "tracking" the target. It doesn't mean that it can fire at it right then and there." But that isn't true. As has been shown before sometimes units are firing right through the middle of a building. This does happen! The cause of this problem is that the TacAI is not "smart" enough to understand that the shot is too close to be safe at that distance. Hopefully this will be improved upon in CM2. I'm not complaining about the AI firing on locations that are too close to be safe. That's another issue all together for me. The thing is that units are trying to fire through buildings. Sometimes they can do it, and sometimes they can't. In the case of a Wespe trying it and not succeeding when the building is next to him it kills him. If he wasn't trying to fire through the building to start with this wouldn't be a problem. So if you fix the problem of units firing through buildings (and sometimes actually succeeding in this as has been shown before) then you will fix the second problem too. ------------------ Craig "Only a madman would consider the possibility of war between the two states (France and Germany), for which, from our point of view, there is no rational or moral ground." - Chancellor Adolf Hitler, Oct. 14, 1933 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 29, 2001 Share Posted January 29, 2001 Subvet, We will need to see a save game of this happening. If units are indeed firing through buildings, it is certainly a bug and one that has not ever been documented before. The only times we have seen anything like this is when a unit is trying to fire too close to a building's edge and the shell goes off course, impacting on a building. If you have a reproducable savegame file please send it along to matt@battlefront.com along with a description of the problem. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvet Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 Steve, thanks for the reply. I don't have any save games with this, but next time I see it I'll be sure to save and send it. I did a search here and found more than one person talking about this happening. I found the thread that discussed the schrek shot through the building, but the screenshots aren't there anymore. I did bump it to the top if you are interested. In talking about this last night at the CMHQ chat with my opponent he told me about a couple of times he has seen this too. Anyway, I'll just have to wait to get proof next time. Oops, the name of the thread I was talking about above is "I dare anyone to top this shot." ------------------ Craig "Only a madman would consider the possibility of war between the two states (France and Germany), for which, from our point of view, there is no rational or moral ground." - Chancellor Adolf Hitler, Oct. 14, 1933 [This message has been edited by Subvet (edited 01-29-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvet Posted February 7, 2001 Share Posted February 7, 2001 BTS: "LOS will not be calculated through a house." Ok, this continues to be a problem. I know there are those non-believers out there, but I have screenshots, heh heh. Here is my Wespe trying to hide behind a house: Now let me explain. In the first shot you see the wespe looking through a house. In the second shot I moved his LOS line back about a meter and LOS is blocked. It is blocked all the way back to the corner, as shown in shot number three. Of course it it blocked forward of the good LOS as well. The exact same LOS problem is on the other back corner of the house too. If this was just a case of the house not being shown exactly where it is in the code then you'd figure that LOS would be good all the way back from the spot in the first shot. But this isn't the case. There is an LOS "hole" through this house. Also, this isn't a case of "following" a target even though it is out of LOS, so that doesn't explain it either. Maybe this is a reason Wespe are blowing themselves up? ------------------ Craig "Only a madman would consider the possibility of war between the two states (France and Germany), for which, from our point of view, there is no rational or moral ground." - Chancellor Adolf Hitler, Oct. 14, 1933 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvet Posted February 7, 2001 Share Posted February 7, 2001 Here is the same vehicle from the top view looking through the other back corner: ------------------ Craig "Only a madman would consider the possibility of war between the two states (France and Germany), for which, from our point of view, there is no rational or moral ground." - Chancellor Adolf Hitler, Oct. 14, 1933 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvet Posted February 7, 2001 Share Posted February 7, 2001 One more thing. In this game I have two other Wespe that are doing the same thing with two other buildings. It isn't just a glitch with this one vehicle and one building. I'd post more screens, but I don't know of another host ------------------ Craig "Only a madman would consider the possibility of war between the two states (France and Germany), for which, from our point of view, there is no rational or moral ground." - Chancellor Adolf Hitler, Oct. 14, 1933 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tero Posted February 7, 2001 Share Posted February 7, 2001 >There's also a shematic picture that has a part called "varmistusjousi" ("safety spring") but its working mechanism is not explained. Apparently it holds the striking pin in position until firing. I would guess that the shell acceleration will release the spring and allow striking pin to move. In that case, the spring wouldn't actually prevent nearby detonations. Are you sure these parts are also for impact fuses and not for timed fuses only ? >In any case, Finnish artillery units suffered barrel detonations and sometimes rounds exploded just after leaving the barrel, so in any case the safety spring was not completely reliable. The most recent incident I heard about was due to a faulty setting of a timed fuse. Some airhead boot brown bar trainee had calcultated the flight time wrong and that resulted in a shell detonation a few meters after it had cleared the tube. I think that during the war faulty detonators were not as common as handling errors. IF the shells did not date from the 19th century. On the subject at hand: I doubt any experienced artillery crew would even attempt firing the gun with obstructions so close to the muzzle unless it was a do-or-die situation. And not even then. The shock wave from the firing striking back is strong enough, let alone the actual shell detonating too close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted February 7, 2001 Share Posted February 7, 2001 tero wrote: Are you sure these parts are also for impact fuses and not for timed fuses only ? The caption identified it as an impact fuze. - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tero Posted February 7, 2001 Share Posted February 7, 2001 >The caption identified it as an impact fuze. OK. I only have the platoon commanders manual from 1935 and it is a bit sketcy on the fuse types I looked at the 1984 edition of Coastal Artillery mans hand book and there was a thingie called centrifugal arming device (safety device) in the fuses section in addition to the spring thingie. The guns (both training and service ones) however back then were mostly WWII era pieces so I wonder how long that thingie has been in exsistence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfgardner Posted February 7, 2001 Share Posted February 7, 2001 Learn something new every day. I'm for anything that results in the destruction of German AFVs. One tactic I've found that works is to litter the battlefield with my burning Shermans, then move my infantry into close assault while the AI or my human opponent continues to "laugh hysterically" at my obvious superior tactical moves. Never thought of the "building in path of a German AFV" gambit.....I shall implement this tactic immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 Originally posted by tero: > I looked at the 1984 edition of Coastal Artillery mans hand book and there was a thingie called centrifugal arming device (safety device) in the fuses section in addition to the spring thingie. The guns (both training and service ones) however back then were mostly WWII era pieces so I wonder how long that thingie has been in exsistence. Ahhhhh... the dreaded "thingie", not to be confused with the dastardly "whojakapivvie", the veritable "whatsamacallit" and the inscrutible "thingemebob". Did they use those in artillery shells? Regards Jim R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illo Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 Minengeshoss rounds for MG151/20, MG/FFM, MK103... (German WW2 aircraft autocannons) had centrifucial fusing mechanism. So i guess it wasnt new for artillery pieces either. Btw.My veteran Sd.Kfz-251/9 knocked itself out in last game against AI. It was firing nearby(10m)infantry, shot went short(5m) and shrapnel(or blast) from its own 75mm took it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeydz Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 Hey BTS. I don't know if you've recreated this Building LOS hole bug, but if not, I've created a test scenario which demonstrates it. Let me know where to send it if you need it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackVoid Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 Very annoying when this kind of stuff happens. Really, gunnery in the game is sometimes suspect in the game. Weird stuff: 1. Tank hitting corner of house he is hiding behind instead of the enemy. 2. Gun missing a two-storey building from 200 meters. 3. Moving Sherman FF hitting Tiger on first shot from 400 meters while the stationary Tiger with gun pointing in the Sherman's direction missing. 4. PZ IV not engaging under hunt command when a Sexton is firing at him. Sexton kills with the first shot! This kind of stuff happens way too often to my liking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeydz Posted February 8, 2001 Share Posted February 8, 2001 Originally posted by BlackVoid: Weird stuff: 1. Tank hitting corner of house he is hiding behind instead of the enemy. 2. Gun missing a two-storey building from 200 meters. 3. Moving Sherman FF hitting Tiger on first shot from 400 meters while the stationary Tiger with gun pointing in the Sherman's direction missing. 4. PZ IV not engaging under hunt command when a Sexton is firing at him. Sexton kills with the first shot! Well, 1 may be occuring more often than you would expect because of a possible bug. But 2, 3 and 4? 2.Was the target in the top floor near a corner, or centered in the build in relation to where you were firing from? 3.How many times total have you witnessed this Sherman/Tiger dual? Or do you think it's patently impossible for a moving sherman to hit a stationary tiger, while the tiger misses? 4.How do you know the Pz IV spotted the Sexton in time to do anything about it? Or maybe it decided that moving toward cover was a better option than just stopping and trying to engage when it appeared to not have the upper hand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V B Posted February 9, 2001 Share Posted February 9, 2001 BTS here is a save game of a bazooka shell going through a house. On your way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvet Posted February 9, 2001 Share Posted February 9, 2001 Any comments from BTS on this LOS/LOF through buildings? Next patch? ------------------ Craig "Only a madman would consider the possibility of war between the two states (France and Germany), for which, from our point of view, there is no rational or moral ground." - Chancellor Adolf Hitler, Oct. 14, 1933 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvet Posted February 10, 2001 Share Posted February 10, 2001 The silence is disturbing. ------------------ Craig "Only a madman would consider the possibility of war between the two states (France and Germany), for which, from our point of view, there is no rational or moral ground." - Chancellor Adolf Hitler, Oct. 14, 1933 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeydz Posted February 10, 2001 Share Posted February 10, 2001 Silence means nothing. I'm sure it has been noted and is being looked into. Wether it will be addressed in another patch, that is unknown, considering the focus is now toward CM2, but guess it would depend on if any serious bugs cropped up from 1.12. At any rate, my limited testing was able to reproduce it, but generally only if the tank/vehicle was butted up right against the building. And even at that, it didn't always occur. My suggestion is to not park your Wespe that close, and you should be ok. If your so close that it looks like the edge of your tank is in the building, even at realistic scale, then back away a few meters. No guarantees, but that should in at the least minimize the chance of it happening. Mikey [This message has been edited by Mikeydz (edited 02-10-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvet Posted February 16, 2001 Share Posted February 16, 2001 Bump. BTS? ------------------ Craig "Only a madman would consider the possibility of war between the two states (France and Germany), for which, from our point of view, there is no rational or moral ground." - Chancellor Adolf Hitler, Oct. 14, 1933 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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