CM and historical accuracy, a question for the Grognards

[Crockett]

I'm quite a novice in wargames , have a little knowledge in WW2 warfare , tactics and in CM I learn to fight ( survive ) by the hard way ( for my pixelized troops ) .

It took me time to understand that the only chance to survive when I'm standing in front of a Tiger with my little Sherman and hysterically firing at it is that the Tiger's crew will die of too much laughing at me .

I understand that CM is historically very realistic in armour , weapons , tanks or ballistic reproduction and that in this game it will not help me to plan the best strategy if I use the wrong weapon on the wrong unit.For me that's one of the things that make this game very interesting and challenging to play.

The question is how far does it go ?

Apart from the historic accuracy which may be very important for some and less for others ,how much is it tactically important for the player ( Grognard or not ) to know if his tank is a Panther PzVA , PZVG or PZVG Late ? In a certain situation when playing CM will you deal in different ways if your tank is a Panzer IVH , a Panzer IVJ or a Panzer IVG ?

Can you give me the links for the best Web sites about WW2 weapons ?

Thanks

Crockett.

[Skipper]

in armor the tactics depend heavily on who can kill whom from what distance/aspect. Which means that you should always look at penetration tables and armor thickness tables.

Panther G is not much different from Panther G (late), but say various Shermans are VERY different. There are even some Shermans, that can kill Pz-V with frontal hit.

[Mattias]

Crockett,

In a pitched battle every little advantage counts.

Sitting in my Sherman 76 I will feel slightly, if not much, better knowing that my opponent has an early Panther with front turret design flaws.

And sitting in my vanilla Sherman I will feel a whole lot better if I somehow see that my opponent is armed with slow turreted Pz IV J's as opposed to the faster H's.

Sometimes the sum of advantages can be overcome by bad luck but most of the time the player with the deeper insight will win, when everything else is equal.

M.

[Pascal DI FOLCO]

Well, the names and model numbers only are that : a name put on a certain set of parameters, in game terms.

There's not much difference between a Panther A and G, but there's a world between a PzIVC and a H (you'll see that in CM2 !).

Additionally each country has a separate method for naming, so you'll see same Sherms with different name for US and Brit service, whereas certain subtleties such as "+" or "HVSS" are more meaningful !!

So my advice is : at first forget "learning" the names, concentrate instead on examining your vehicles in the games you play.

Most important are armor and penetration data : at which distance can you kill the enemy ? And him kill you ?

So you'll find *if* and *where* you've the edge !

Second come "mobility" factors : are your/the enemy 's vehicles faster ? have they slow/fast turrets ? Gyrostabilizer ?

With this you'll determine if you've to move and close, shoot from close or long range, etc...And experience will tell you the rest and become familiar with the names !

BTW, do a search for the Shermans naming meaning, I'm sure there's stg here...

[aka_tom_w]

I think the most relavent thing to learn is that Just about Any tank can and will kill just about ANY other tank if they get GOOD clean shot at the flank or the rear aspect of the target. Simple eh?

That might be an over simplification (OK ) BUT it saves memorizing all he numbers. Getting a flank shot is not the be all and end all of this game but it SURE helps in a sticky situation.

I think it is VERY wise to just look at what you are commanding. Focus on the stats of the AFV's you have under your immediate command at the time (select the unit and hit return or enter) for their stats. Then once you have positively ID'd the enemy AFV hit return on their stats and look and see if your available firepower can effectively penetrate his armour. Easy!

Don't forget if the "fluke factor" of the "weak point penetration" which maybe all you have left to hope for (or a lucky "shreck or 'zook kill) near the end of the battle.

I would say don't bother memorizing stats and figures, just focus on what you have on hand.

UNLESS of course you prefer to BUY your forces (not Everyone does that you know) then you do really need to know what all the numbers and designations mean and what are there relative strengths and weaknesses in relation to the cost in points, I think some here specialize in buying the best "bang for the buck" and I think they have emphemistically been refered to as "cherry pickers" .

Good luck

-tom w

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 02-22-2001).]

[Sgt Steiner]

Hi Crockett

BTW how is Tubbs ?

For some good pointers on several CM AFVs check out

http://www.combat-missions.net/

which has a section devoted to CM AFVs with profiles and strong/weak points and lots of player comments on their use etc

Cheers

------------------

Sgt Steiner

Belfast

NI UK

[Jasper]

While certainly not the "BEST: sites - I frequency use these sites.

German armor

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzer.htm

Russian armor

http://www.algonet.se/~toriert/introduction.htm

Russian stuff

http://history.vif2.ru/

People love the German toys, so it's hard to swing a dead cat about WWII without hitting German hardware information.

You can get US information from the 'horses mouth' at places like:

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/online/Bookshelves/books3.htm

Or

http://carlisle-www.army.mil/

Another noteworthy site is

http://www.wargamer.org/GvA/weapons/introduction.html

Those should get you started.

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Check out http://www.geocities.com/funfacts2001/ or

http://hyperion.spaceports.com/~funfacts/ for military documents written during WWII.

[Crockett]

Thank you all for your answers and addresses

After all it seems that the Grognards are not so snob and elitist as it is said

Crockett.

[GriffinCheng+]

Crockett,

Like you, I am still learning how to play the game well.

From my little painful experience, there is not "super" or "uber" tanks in CMBO. All tanks have their own weakness and strength. German tanks are fun and cool but they are not invulunerable. They are just a little harder to kill, but well, when luck comes into play, well, it sure makes you mad. Proper tactics are need to deal with them or use them on the countary.

Some advices (may be poor):

1. Keep them moving all the time;

2. Your infantry are your tanks' best friends, keep them close;

3. Keep your tanks together;

4. Concentration of fire make good sucker punch, espeically when they come in from diffferent angles to your target;

5. When in doubt, reverse into cover;

6. Hull down when firing;

7. Straight and quiet road is the most dangerous path. So is the urban area;

8. In general, German tanks have upper hands at range over 600m;

9. One Tiger VIE worths combatwise more than 2 Panzer IVHs;

10. Watch out for those M5 Straut and M8 Greyhound, they are deadier "animal-killers" than M18 Hellcats;

11. JadgPanzers in general make very good panzer ambushes.

12. Tiger VIE is NOT the best German tank in the game.

I usually refer to http://combat-mission.net/ for armor tactics.

Griffin.

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"When you find your PBEM opportents too hard to beat, there is always the AI."

"Can't get enough Tank?"

[Hans]

Combined arms, a catchy term that is probably the best path to victory

Armour protects the Infantry from Machine guns and the Infantry protects the Armour from AT weapons. They protect each other from artillery by concealment and dispersion. Once they have gotten an enemy pinned down bring in the arty. Then assault. Sounds simples but isn't. The central point of a defense is to break up the enemies combined arms attack using the terrain, obstacles, artillery/mortars, MGs and AT. Then counter-attack.

Its a fine art and often falls apart under fire!

Finally don't forget "luck" some days a Stuart will knock out 5 Panzer IVs with five shots or four Panthers will get creamed by at 105mm howitzer lying in wait.

Fortunes of war

[Guest Mikey D]

The biggest difference in armor marks seems to be on the Allied side. A late model Sherman has a much better gun and better cross country ability than the early model. A late Churchill is considerably tougher than an early mark. The German armor?... I haven't seen a noticeable difference between the late and early Tiger I in actual combat. The Panther AufsA has more frontal shot traps than the late G and seems mor liable to be done-in by a lucky shot.