Zakalwe Posted March 8, 2001 Share Posted March 8, 2001 While we still have time, I'd like to put forward a request concerning the teminology of CM2. I'm annoyed by the way most WW2 wargames are loosely using the terms 'Russia' and 'Russian' to describe the entirety of Soviet Union and Soviet citizens. So, I sincerely hope we will see 'Soviet rifle squads', instead of 'Russian SMG squads'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted March 8, 2001 Share Posted March 8, 2001 Would "Soviet SMG Squad" be ok? Jeff Heidman [This message has been edited by Jeff Heidman (edited 03-08-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattias Posted March 8, 2001 Share Posted March 8, 2001 You are right of course. As a Swede one does it out of habit, it has always been "the Russian" that has been the military threat. *A Sgt. is holding a small introductory lecture on Swedish strategy, a bunch of pie eyed conscripts are attending* On the map there are several fat red arrows streaking over the Baltic, showing the path of the Soviet air and sea born assault forces striking towards the eastern coast of Sweden. The Sgt. says, "this is where the enemy will come, landing, and then strike inwards." *One of the more provocative conscripts who has been taught that Sweden stands completely neutral between NATO and the Warsaw pact raises his hand and says..* -But couldn't the attack just as well come on the other side, from the west? The Sgt. looks over the map, stands silent for a few moments, and then says... "yea, I guess, but it would be one hell of a detour!" M. [This message has been edited by Mattias (edited 03-08-2001).] [This message has been edited by Mattias (edited 03-08-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Space Thing Posted March 8, 2001 Share Posted March 8, 2001 Originally posted by Zakalwe: While we still have time, I'd like to put forward a request concerning the teminology of CM2. I'm annoyed by the way most WW2 wargames are loosely using the terms 'Russia' and 'Russian' to describe the entirety of Soviet Union and Soviet citizens. I guess that it really depends upon your pespective. ALSO I feel that Russians are still Russians, no matter what POLITICAL party is in power over there. The fact that the Soviet Party has come and gone and (GUESS WHAT) -they're still Russian says something important. I've heard it said that eventually in the end, the only communists or socialists in the world will end up being Americans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted March 8, 2001 Share Posted March 8, 2001 Originally posted by Space Thing: I guess that it really depends upon your pespective. What perspective would make a Ukrainian a Russian? It has nothing to do with perspective. ALSO I feel that Russians are still Russians, no matter what POLITICAL party is in power over there. The fact that the Soviet Party has come and gone and (GUESS WHAT) -they're still Russian says something important. The Soviet Union has come and gone, and yes the RUSSIANS are still RUSSIANS, but the Soviet Union was composed of much more than just Russia. Which is the point. "Soviet" is a political label for the political group made up of several distinct nationalities, of which Russia was only one, although the dominant one. "Russia" is a label for a specific area/nationality. So it is incorrect to refer to the Soviet Union as "Russia". I've heard it said that eventually in the end, the only communists or socialists in the world will end up being Americans. Uh, ok. Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easy-v Posted March 8, 2001 Share Posted March 8, 2001 Originally posted by Space Thing: I guess that it really depends upon your pespective. ALSO I feel that Russians are still Russians, no matter what POLITICAL party is in power over there. The fact that the Soviet Party has come and gone and (GUESS WHAT) -they're still Russian says something important. I've heard it said that eventually in the end, the only communists or socialists in the world will end up being Americans. HUH? Come back down to earth, man. easy-v Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted March 8, 2001 Share Posted March 8, 2001 Originally posted by Space Thing: I guess that it really depends upon your pespective. ALSO I feel that Russians are still Russians, no matter what POLITICAL party is in power over there. The fact that the Soviet Party has come and gone and (GUESS WHAT) -they're still Russian says something important. I've heard it said that eventually in the end, the only communists or socialists in the world will end up being Americans. You are forgetting that a good portion of the Soviet Union was composed of other countries, where people were NOT Russian. Ukraine, Czechoslovakia, Georgia, etc. It would be unfair to the people who have died just like the rest to call them all "Russian". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Ridgeway Posted March 8, 2001 Share Posted March 8, 2001 How about "commie SMG squad"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ciks Posted March 8, 2001 Share Posted March 8, 2001 You are forgetting that a good portion of the Soviet Union was composed of other countries, where people were NOT Russian. Ukraine, Czechoslovakia, Georgia, etc. Czechoslovakia was NEVER part of the USSR. There were total 15 countries in the Soviet Union: Estonia Latvia Lithuania Belorussia Russia Moldova Ukraine Georgia Armenia Azerbaijan Kazakhstan Turkmenistan Uzbekistan Kirgizstan Tajikistan (sorry for spelling mistakes, if any) [This message has been edited by ciks (edited 03-08-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted March 8, 2001 Share Posted March 8, 2001 Originally posted by The Commissar: You are forgetting that a good portion of the Soviet Union was composed of other countries, where people were NOT Russian. Ukraine, Czechoslovakia, Georgia, etc. It would be unfair to the people who have died just like the rest to call them all "Russian". You may want to check your history there - I am quite sure Czechoslovakians were never part of the Soviet Union. Parts of Slovakia were part of the Russian Empire though (as was Ukraine, Georgia, etc.pp.) I read (probably Ericsson) that one of the things that almost immediately changed in propaganda after June 22nd 1941 was a much increased emphasis on the 'Rodina', the motherland. I was just wondering whether this was Russian nationalism, or some sort of Soviet nationalism that was addressed there. As for the topic of this thread maybe a good way to address it would be 'Red Army' Rifle Squad. Like now we have SS Rifle Squad. Other than that, Soviet sounds much better, IMO. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomer Pyle Posted March 8, 2001 Share Posted March 8, 2001 Czechoslovakia was divided up & given piecemeal to the Reich.The Sudatenland was incorporated into the Reich,Bohemia & Moravia were turned into a Nazi protectorate & Slovakia was independent only in name.This annexation of an independent European state without a shot being fired is believed by many people to be if not the cause of WWII then certainly fuel for Hitler's megalomaniac ambitions. European countries that were part of USSR include Byelorussia,Armenia,Azerbaijan & following their incorporation/annexation in 1940 the Baltic States of Latvia,Lithuania & Estonia.This list of course does not include any of the States that made up the USSR in the East the soldiers of which were crucial in turning back the German army at Moscow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted March 8, 2001 Share Posted March 8, 2001 Originally posted by Germanboy: I read (probably Ericsson) that one of the things that almost immediately changed in propaganda after June 22nd 1941 was a much increased emphasis on the 'Rodina', the motherland. I was just wondering whether this was Russian nationalism, or some sort of Soviet nationalism that was addressed there. Yeah, Soviet instead of Russian. Keep in mind that Stalin was from Georgia, so were some of his best pals in the leadership (he had them killed last) and that the troops who fought the Germans came from all over. Calling Ukranian troops in the Red Army in WW2 Russian is like calling Hungarian troops German, cause they fought on the same side. And yes, Andreas, there was a marked return to nationalist propaganda, starting about 6 months after the German invasion. Keep in mind that although Stalin was a big proponent of "Socialisim in One Country" the discourse before then had been quite internationalist in content -- all about the worldwide workers revolution and so on. (Rabochiee Vcex Stran Coyedenyaityez!!) The switch was marked and sudden -- exactly as you put it: an appeal to defense of the motherland instead of the defeat of international capitalism. Also, the Kremlin took the lid off the Russian Orthodox Church during the war and their presence as a motivating force was seen more during the war years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pascal DI FOLCO Posted March 8, 2001 Share Posted March 8, 2001 Jeff summed the point well : the nation that fought in the WW2 was the Soviet Union, with (a majority) of Russians, but also Ukrainians, Bielorussians, Azerbaidjanese (?) ..and others ... This not a matter of political opinion or regime, only history. Since then the former USSR was broken up in a dozen of new states, the biggest being Russia, but that's OT. When a book, game or movie speak of the Roman empire, it labels the Romans "Romans", not "Italians"...and doesn't refer in particular to people dwelling in Roma itself ! It's just the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted March 8, 2001 Share Posted March 8, 2001 Originally posted by Space Thing: I feel that Russians are still Russians, no matter what POLITICAL party is in power over there. The fact that the Soviet Party has come and gone and (GUESS WHAT) -they're still Russian says something important. The point he was making is that the Soviet Union is made up of more countries than just Russia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted March 8, 2001 Share Posted March 8, 2001 Matthew_Ridgeway, even if it was meant as a joke, be careful when using terms that might be considered derogatory. US squads will not be called "Capitalist Rifle squad". Nor will German squads be called "Nazi Rifle squad". Some people might be offended by this and it has nothing to do with the tactical simulation. The points made by Zakalwe and others, that has any bearing on CM2 have been noted. If anyone feels there is more to say on this subject, please feel free to restart it in the General Forum. Deputy Moderator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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