Commissar Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 Traditionally, I play the German side most often as I prefer the toys the Germans had and I like being the "bad" guys. Whenever I play a CM battle, I notice that I usually pick the same kind of units. It works well for me and I usually end up winning the battle while inflicting many more casualities on my Allied enemy than I suffer myself. I am curious to know what other German players typically use in their kampfgruppe. I usually like using my SS units but I have been concentrating on Heer units now. With the Heer, I usually take a SturmKompanie or two as well as a Tiger, two STUH (late ver.) and maybe a Puma or two and sometimes a Hummel. What units do you find to be the most effective for you? I realize that this will mainly be determined by your particular fighting style and the nature of the mission. Also, I have played CM for quite a while now and I have played countless quick battles but just last week for the first time, my enemy actually had fighter-bombers. They made three passes at my forces. At first, I was greatly suprised since I never saw the enemy have these on the field in a quick battle. Luckily for me, they weren't too effective. The bombing run missed my STUH and caused no damage, and their strafing attacks managed to only set of fire two half-tracks that were already destroyed (I quickly moved the rest of my armor force into some scattered trees). They tried strafing my Tiger, but they probably would have been just as effective in taking it out if they were to hurl offensive language at it. Has the recent patch made the appearance of Jabos for the Allies more likely or was it just one of those rare flukes?? [This message has been edited by Commissar (edited 02-28-2001).] [This message has been edited by Commissar (edited 02-28-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 Germans are the "bad" guys? OK, let`s put that aside... I agree with you, Commisar, that the force selection depends heavily on your style of play and your mission. But, as you point out, after 8 months of playing CM, I got my "favourite" units as well. When playing ther Germans, I really appreciate the firepower of the Panzergrenadiere (mot. Inf.). Those 2 Mgs in each squad gives an extra bang on large distances. And I REALLY like to use AT guns. In almost any game I buy at least two of these babes. Even cheap 50mms can kill enemy armour if placed properly. About 50-75% of all my tank kill are credited to those guys... And never forget to add some 20mms for dealing with those fast enemy recon vehicles... For infantry support never leave home without a Sturmhaubitze, nice blast value! For tanks, well I don't like playing with "Ubertanks"... So no Kingtigers, Jagdpanthers and so on. I prefer to spend the points for those BIG cats rather in a mixture of infantry, AT guns and arty. Ah, arty! Never go to war without some 120mm mortars, best (IMHO) bang for the buck for the germans. And tanks? I'll like Hetzers, Stugs and yeah, sometimes a Tiger. And for battles with lot`s of trees or inside towns a Pzkpfw IV because of fast turret. ------------------ Klotzen, nicht kleckern! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 Bad guys, good guys, I'm the ugly guy. Dodeedoodle doo, da dee da... But, I tend to use the "Short 75" rule to avoid nasty surprises, and still prefer the Combined Arms settings over the Unrestricted. Okay, my usual. SS: 1 MarkIV(G), or (H) 1 Marder II or III 1 Panzergrenadier Co., (Mot) 1 251/9 1 251/1 2 75mm Artillery FO's 1-2 Panzershrecks 1 sniper 1 20mm Flak (towed) or 1 50mm AT (towed) or 1 75mm How (towed) or 37mm Flakwagon or an additional 81mm Mortar or schreck. Something on that order with the left over points. Sometimes I just use them to bump up the experience level of something to Veteran. [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 02-28-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Posted February 28, 2001 Author Share Posted February 28, 2001 That's why I put bad in "" Anyway, I also usually put a 37mm AA gun-truck as well. After what one player said concerning the effectiveness of the 40mm bofors for the Allies, I tried doing something similar for the Germans. Those things rock!! If I can't take an armored vehicle out, it usually does damage to the gun which great decreases that vehicle/tank's effectiveness. I find that any AT guns I get are somewhat easily destroyed by Allied artillery. The computer has a knack of find them and eliminating them, hence I prefer something that can move around easily. I am not good in employing artillery, particular my mortar. Half the time, I forget they are there. Other times when I try to move them up to get good LOSs, they get hit. I really suck at mortar deployment. Perhaps, I need to use the half-track version for easier use. [This message has been edited by Commissar (edited 02-28-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 Yes, I agree towed guns are vulnerable. But I find that holding them in reserve, hopefully until the opponent has revealed his positions, or a trigger happy opponent has expended his arty, wasted it really all over creation thinking it is some sort of Uber salvation, (chehehe), allows the towed guns to survive longer and just possibly come into play at a critical juncture. Just watch for those pesky infantry mortar units, and keep them guns well to the rear with a 251/1 as a taxi at the ready. This has worked for me pretty well anyhow. Hey Commissary, ya schmuck, why din ya answer my invitation. I'll show ya's first hand how this works. [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 02-28-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croda Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 My attack standard lately has been this: 2 Vet Panthers 1 Vet Tiger 1 Reg Wespe 4 Reg Spw 251/1 HT 1 Co vet PanzerGrenadiers (SS or Heer) 1 Reg 81mm FO 1 Reg 105mm FO 2 SharpShooters The attack works like this: Each Panther is up with 1 platoon of PzrGr in support. The Panther carries the Platoon HQ and an MG42. A split squad is in front for scouting, with the other 2 squads trailing the Panther. The two groups attack in support, typically up one flank or the other. The Tiger and Wespe are in overwatch, the Wespe coming out when the area is clear of enemy AT assets. The third platoon is mounted in the HTs in cover. They are dispatched quickly when an enemy strongpoint is found and suppressed. That way they can come in with 4 HTs MGs blazing. The Co HQ, FOs and 2 81mm mortars and an MG42 sit back in overwatch near the Tiger. The 2 SharpShooters advance, with the Weps team Platoon HQ and the fourth MG42, along a separate axis of advance trying to locate and suppress enemy AT assets. It's worked well against the AI (what doesn't?), and I am now trying this against a couple of human opponents. BTW, this is all done with a 1,250 pt attack, which nets something like 1,800 pts. ------------------ Woot! - Maximus2k The New CessPool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 Unless I am forced to do otherwise I'll take a mainly infantry force of Heer rifle squads, transported in halftracks, supported by PzKfw IVs, panzerschrecks and artillery, typically 81mm and 105mm offboard. If I have the points I may add a few StuH 42s. If I have even more points I will add more artillery, typically rockets for their shock value. If I have still more points I will either a) add onboard mortars, add a "what-if" force of Pioneers or Volksgrenadier Fusilier squads or c) buy Panthers instead of Mark IVs. ------------------ Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy w/gun Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 Jeez you guys! I don't go into battle with out ATLEAST 8 Elite King Tigers! MUHAHAHAHA! Sorry...please excuse my attempt at Trolling. Hehehehe....uh boy... [This message has been edited by Guy w/gun (edited 02-28-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Star Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 The exact group depends upon size, but here are some key elements: Anti-armor: Love to get a Panther and a Jpz IV as choices. I don't play uber-tanks much. Also, got to have a Sharpshooter. Infantry Support: Pz IV (also back up anti-armor) and a Wespe. Love to get a 75mm Infantry gun. Had one take out a Firefly recently. Hellcat Killer: Buy an SdKfz 7/2 Support Vehicles: Almost none. Halftracks are too costly, Pumas get have that slow turret. If you use unrestricted selection, the equivalent tank is a better deal. Artillery: The 120mm mortar is a great deal. Powerful and quick response. Only drawback is that it has no smoke. Infantry: Sturmgroup is king. Veteran if you can. Supplement it with SMG platoons or security or motorized. Just my 2 cents. My record does not match the obvious intelligence of my choices. ------------------ "Act after having made assessments. The one who first knows the measures of far and near wins - this the rule of armed struggle." Sun Tzu - The Art of War Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russellmz Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 After killing Evil Ash Good Ash: "Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun." ------------------ russellmz, Self-Proclaimed Keeper for Life of the Sacred Unofficial FAQ. "They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush "They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show [This message has been edited by russellmz (edited 02-28-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FFE Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 My general force makeup for 1500 pt ME's (Combined arms) -- Vehicles -- (1) Jadgpanzer IV (70) - Regular (1) Hetzer - Veteran (2) Sd Kfz 7/2 Flak Vehicles - Veterans (1) SPW 251/2 - Regular -- Infantry and support -- (1) Rifle Company - Regular (1) Rifle Platoon - Regular (2) Rifle Platoons - Veterans (2) 81mm Mortars - Veterans (1) 105mm FO - Regular (1) 81mm FO - Regular (1) 75mm Inf Gun - Veteran (1) Shrek Team - Veteran (1) MG-42 Light MG - Veteran ___________________________________ This gives me six platoons of rifles, which is quite nice. Depending on the terrain I might opt for SMG (VG's) rather than rifles. The armor is support, not meant to break through enemy lines. I use the flak trucks to pick off light enemy armor and flank enemy main armor. The Veteran 37mm Flak wagons are utterly lethal (for their cost). The Computer AI makes the wagons run away from anything, which poses a major threat. My force contains only 2 HMG's and 1 LMG. However with the SPW and Jadgpanzer one can get all three MG's into position quite fast. The 75mm Inf gun is an ace in the hole. It's able to take out Allied TD's and light armor while nailing enemy infantry. The 81mm mortars (veterans) are my fast artillery. They work effectively to take out enemy guns and suppress enemy positions. I rarely use the 81mm's to target enemy armor, unless the armor is open topped and near "woods" then I will area target the woods in hopes of KO'ing the open topped vehicle with a tree burst (this works extremely well due to the veteran status of the 81's). As mentioned before, the terrain conditions will determine whether I will take VG's or not. If the terrain is a town, then I often try to squeeze in a Hummel or two in place of the Hetzer. Nothing quite beats a hummel when a building needs pummeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaffod Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 Well I usually always have the ai automatically pick units.. but i believe the perfect ATTACK force to definately include Motorized PzrGrenadiers. These guys do pack a whallop AND have reasonable speed/mobility. I tend to always pick realistic (or supposed realistic) tank combos. Perhaps 2 Mk IVs or 2 tank hunters - usualy a stug or pnzJager IV. Maybe an anti infantry carriage for direct support. I always keep armor in the back initially and throw all my troops in a semi-wide angle toward a schwerpunkt. when one side of the attack meets the main area of resistance i can usualy swing the flanking units to meet the flank of the resistance.. I then plug in the hole they made with at least one platoon in reserve. This is almost all the reserve i ever have on attack missions. I believe the best way to win is to hit them with everything youve got. it doesnt neccisarily have to be right away, but if you can get in a mode of building the number of guns facing the enemy through each turn, then you are almost always garunteed an advance. I usually sneak my tanks or TDs up on the sides of other enemy AFVs to surgically take them out almost always trying to see them first before they can retaliate. They then withdraw again till the next threat comes. When im confident a majority of the enemy armor is done for i will then move the tanks out for an open assisted assault w/ the troops. Moving tanks out first or even making them visible in the early phases of a battle is a certified pass for instant death. For DEFENSE ya cant go wrong with a few well placed 20mms and if your lucky a 37mm or 2! These babies will take out everything but shermans! they are truly an unrecognized Waffen in the game Im always changin my strategy and trying to focus alot more on reconning properly, especiialy in defence battles. On larger maps - recon is definately more essential.. on smaller ones i find a well placed schreck team or sharpshooter provides all the basic recon i need. Of course any battle plan is simple until you engage the enemy! so flexibility is the end all be all of combat Zaff' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ace Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 One tactic I like, especially on defense, is to employ a combination slope/reverse slope defense. For example, it a recent QB, I had a platoon of panzergrenadiers positioned about 300 m from the crest of a hill that the enemy was advancing on. I also had a SMG platoon in a reverse slope position in cover in some woods. So, as the enemy crested the hill, they were hit by the panzergrenadiers from range and ran towards the woods where my SMG platoon lay in wait. Can you say slaughter? Unfortunately, a tank supporting the americans put a scare in my SMG squad once they had taken out the first enemy platoon. Next time I'll be sure to have some more AT assets in support. Basically, in hilly terrain whie defending, I like covering AoA with MGs and other long range weapons but then have SMG teams in reverse-slope positions - it makes a great combination and really ultilizes their firepower most effectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtweasle Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 Originally posted by ParaBellum: Germans are the "bad" guys? OK, lets put that aside... And I REALLY like to use AT guns... With good results I might add. I've gained new respect for the cheap little guns. Hidden away and sniping out, they are quite a nasty surprise. Oh and by the way, I know about flippin' recon alright? But given the sheer size of a large map, and the myriad of places to hide those damn things, it's nigh onto impossible to recon the whole haunted map. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 Hi Dirtweasle! Hehehe... That Pak nailing your Sherm was nice to behold... But your Bazookas toasting my Hetzer wasn't that bad, either. ------------------ Klotzen, nicht kleckern! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoncawley@ameritech.net Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 Kampgruppen? Here are some that appear in an operation I am in the middle of designing (the unit involved is 2nd Panzer if anyone wants to know). There are six of them, three "elements" of the main force, and three levels of reserves to suppliment them. The basic structure of the overall force (much bigger than a QB) is a Panzer company, a Pz Gdr company, and a Pioneer company, supported by the fires of two battalions of artillery. With attachments. Elements of these make up the various pieces of the main column, and the reserve. The force structure of the lead part of the column, element #1, is an Armored Recce platoon, Panzer platoon, and Pz Gdrs, with 105mm support. Its mission is recon in force. Its equipment in detail, regulars unless noted, is - 2 Pz IIL 1 SPW-251/9 (75mm) 4 SPW-251/1 (MG) HQ+3 Arm. PzGdr squad+1 Scheck (veterans) (that was the armed recce) 4 Pz IVH (1 veteran) HQ+3 Mot. PzGdr squad 1 105mm FO 1280 pts The portion of the column are basic fighters - a Panzer platoon, 2 Pz Gdr platoons, a 37mm FLAK vehicle to protect the center of the column, and 81mm and 105mm FOs. Or in detail - 4 Pz IVH (1 veteran) HQ+3 Mot. PzGdr Squad+1 Schreck 4 SPW-251/1 (MG) HQ+3 Mot. PzGdr Squad 37mm FLAK vehicle 105mm FO 81mm FO 1230 points The third or tail part of the main column, contains the supporting heavy weapons of the PzGdr company, a platoon of armored pioneers, supporting 20mm (foot) and 75mm (halftrack), and a 150mm FO. They dig things out or provide various kinds of fire support. In detail, their equipment is - 2 SPW-251/9 (75mm) 8 SPW-251/1 (MG) 2 20mm FLAK HQ (wpns) 2 81mm Mortar 4 HMG HQ+3 Pioneer Squad 2 Flamethrower 150mm FO 2 Trucks (spare) 1200 pts That is the main column, in 32 vehicles, with each element around 10, and thus individually small enough to deploy pretty fast. Additional tanks, infantry, and artillery support are held out of the fight initially, but can be released to support the main force. The first and simplest of these (battalion-level reserve) is a Panzer platoon plus a platoon of Pioneers, with their company's mortars. 4 Pz IVH (1 veteran) 2 SPW-251/1 (MG) HQ+4 Pioneer Squad 2 Flamethrower 1 HMG 1 Schreck 2 81mm Mortar 920 pts The second, at the "regimental" level, is like the previous but with the Panther platoon, 20mm FLAK instead of mortars, and the last (3rd) 105mm FO. Or in detail - 4 Panther (1 Veteran) 2 SPW-251/1 (MG) HQ+4 Pioneer Squad 2 Flamethrower 1 HMG 1 Schreck 2 20mm FLAK 105mm FO 1350 pts The last reserve, at the "division" level, is meant to represent the intervention of division-level assets in the battle, and is expected only in the event of a counterattack or some such. The intervening units are the divisional AT battalion (a Jadgpanzer platoon), and the division's heavy artillery (150's). This one is not meant to fight alone, but to suppliment one or more of the others. (The same can be said for the 3rd, Hvy Wpns element of the main force BTW). 3 Jadgpanzer IV w/skirt 1 SPW-251/1 (MG) carrying - 2 150mm FO 776 pts. Incidentally, one can use the halves of the last force to represent division-level AT or Arty support, only one not both, for around the same 360-pt cost (if you have a spare FO vehicle that is - it costs a little extra for the 'track too). You could actually use the "main column" force in a large enough standard battle, if the defender had 2500 points and you were attacking e.g. But forces this size are really meant for operations, not QBs. The individual pieces, though, mixed and matched, would give realistic pieces of a Kampgruppe. Incidentally, though, the realism of the above force does mean some drawbacks from a gamey perspective. There are a number of flamethrowers, and lots of halftracks, that are probably overpriced in CM right now. And the force is long on realistic German armor, short on impenetrable front plates. It does have them though. If the business gets nasty enough the Panthers are turned loose in a bunch to stop it - not parcelled out in 1s and 2s with mostly-infantry forces. That Panther "gruppe" is only 1350 points, and that is using pioneers for the infantry. If you are going to use them, use them. Take four even in a smallish battle and don't monkey around. Obviously all of these forces are meant for the attack, and by Panzer troops. Things are different when defending or using infantry troops. But I hope this gives an idea of what a battalion-level Kampgruppe actually was, what its pieces were, and how they were supposed to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaker Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 I almost always play with Waffen-SS units and every now and then Fallschirmjagers. This is my usual small point selection, all at veteran status. Tiger IE Late 1-2 Rifle platoons. If I'm feeling rich, they'll be Panzergrenadiers. Good firepower! Jagdpanzer IV w/skirts. I've come to love these things recently. 81mm Mortar for suppression. This selection does best for me on the defense. On the offense the Tiger will advance and the JgPz will cover, each alternating roles in turn. Infantry shall advance to root up any trouble. Sometimes I'll replace the Tiger with a more all around Panther but that side armor of the Tiger is a lifesaver against unexpected AT attacks. But the beauty of the 88 is that it'll level buildings quicker than the 75mm that caters more to the AT role. That and the fact that Tigers look cool in it's own ugly, boxlike way. I realize that especially on the defense I could get maybe two more 75mm ATGs for the price of one JgPzIV. However, the JgPzIV since it's armored is not prone to simple MG/mortar fire for suppression. That and the sloped armor in a hull down position I learned is a real pain to attacking players. I've thought of replacing JgPzIV's with PzKpfw IV's but I have even worse luck with them than Jagdpanthers. The PzKpfwIV's open up as easily as the Sherman soda cans. But in CM2 I guess I better learn to love them... ------------------ "Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima [This message has been edited by Warmaker (edited 03-01-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonHeinrich Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 Don’t forget mines when you play on the defence. I usually place infantry-mines in wooded terrain in front of my positions. This way I can force him out in the open during his attack. This can be a real beauty, especially in cooperation with TRP in the wooded areas that don’t are mined. AT-mines are great as well in closing some parts of the map and if you are lucky actually destroying some armour (15 points kill 100-200 points). I usually by three anti personal mines and three AT-mines for a middle sized map. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaker Posted March 1, 2001 Share Posted March 1, 2001 Originally posted by VonHeinrich: Don’t forget mines when you play on the defence. I usually place infantry-mines in wooded terrain in front of my positions. This way I can force him out in the open during his attack. This can be a real beauty, especially in cooperation with TRP in the wooded areas that don’t are mined. AT-mines are great as well in closing some parts of the map and if you are lucky actually destroying some armour (15 points kill 100-200 points). I usually by three anti personal mines and three AT-mines for a middle sized map. Good one for remembering the mines. Just be aware that mines don't completely seal off an avenue of approach for the attacker. If there's AT mines blocking his armor he may be crazy enough to race through or send engineers to clear them. Remember, mines and other such obstacles only serve to slow them down. Don't expect them to completely stop an advance all to themselves. For me though I don't have many points left if I'm spending money on that Panther/Tiger I or II so mines are a luxury. ------------------ "Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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