Fairbairn-Sykes Posted July 17, 2001 Share Posted July 17, 2001 Operation Merkur: May 1941 - waves of crack Fallschirmjager (22,000 over 9 days) jump over the small Commonwealth garrison on Crete, hoping to seize numerous airfields and a valuable stepping stone to the Ploesti oil fields in Romania. 7000 Australian riflemen, alongside (15,000) British Commandos, Royal Marines and 7700 Kiwi troops, pick off so many German paratroopers (some in the air) that the Hun rarely uses air drops again in the Second World War... "The days of the paratrooper are finished!" - Hitler to General Student after the bloodshed on Crete. Now about that Aussie victory flag mod... i heard that one was floating around here somewhere. it would be a nice touch for these Mediterranean island scenarios i'm working on. Granted, it's a small mod - Aussie Jeff, have you made one? Australian Involvement [ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: Fairbairn-Sykes Trench Knife ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuka Posted July 17, 2001 Share Posted July 17, 2001 Uhh, I beleive the truth behind the shooting of paratroopers 'in the air' is a little different. As I recall, almost all casualties were suffered once on the ground, the odds of hitting a figure hundreds of feet in the air at up to hundreds of feet distance, while said figure is swaying, twisting and doing all the things that parachute borne bodies do, meant that only a marksman or completely jammy git had any real hope of doing anything other than 'expending the King's ammunition'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairbairn-Sykes Posted July 17, 2001 Author Share Posted July 17, 2001 Yes, yes. i injected a little too much "poetic license" into my simplistic summary of the operation. flame away. however, a hideous storm of anti-aircraft & machinegun fire greeted the FJ, and casualties were indeed taken in the air. the casualties on the ground were so insanely heavy (400 dead out of 600 deployed in the Luftlande Sturm-Regiment alone) because the Allies knew the invasion date and drop zones (British Intelligence Ultra intercepts) ahead of time. Anyway, i'm just a neophyte looking for an Australian victory flag BMP....or a Kiwi one. [ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: Fairbairn-Sykes Trench Knife ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalin's Organ Posted July 17, 2001 Share Posted July 17, 2001 There were 7000 Aussies on Crete and "some" kiwi's? Hrumph! Whate breakfast cereal packet do you study your history out of again? There were a few Ausies there to be sure, along withthe whole of hte New Zealand division, a few thousand Brits and quite a lot of Greeks. And as Stuka rightly points out, probably most of the casualties were caused when the paras were landed. But there are many accounts of riflemen sitting on ramparts and parapets engaging in "duck shooting". The Germans were certainly easier to hit once they'd landed and were struggling to get rid of their gear, even if they could get to shoot back with pistols. But no-one will ever know. And it should be a Kiwi victory flag mod for that particular one thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babra Posted July 17, 2001 Share Posted July 17, 2001 I don't think the Ultra info was shared with NEW ZEALAND General Freyburg, though the last book I read on the subject was written in the 70s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted July 17, 2001 Share Posted July 17, 2001 To give an example of how hard it was to actualy hit a man decending in a parachute the Germans conducted live fire tests in 1942 against air dropped manaquin targets useing expert marksman. In the tests 1 hit was scored at 150m out of 340 rounds. At 300m 1 hit was scored out of 1,708 rounds. Of the Fallschirmjaeger casualties in Crete the hardest hit was 3rd Regt & almost all occured after landing, while attempting to get to their scattered wpns containers & trying to form up. Other elements Ie, the Fallschirmjaeger Eng Bn and Supt formations thaqt landed at Alikanou suffered very few casualties. Regards, John Waters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairbairn-Sykes Posted July 17, 2001 Author Share Posted July 17, 2001 According to "The Illustrated History of Fallschirmjager in WWII" [Chris McNab/MBI pub.2000]: "...the Allies on Crete knew that the Germans were coming. The Ultra intercepts, their codes broken by equipment at Bletchley Park in England, meant the Allies had not only discovered the dates of the invasion but also the landing destinations. "Freyberg had accurately positioned his troops at the designated drop zones." The points made about shooting men out of the sky are well taken PzKpfw 1, but you cite statistics from >150 meters. However, the Fallschirmjager drop over Crete is the lowest Combat jump on record - jump orders were given inside 250 FEET from the ground. As previously stated, the ACK-ACK fire was extremely fierce. I'd love to use a New Zealand flag in my Maleme scenario, do you have a BMP Mr. Organ? The battle i am working on is the 4 day fight for Rethymnon - where FJR 2 spent several days in an olive oil factory resisting counter attacks from several thousand Australian troops. That's why i wanted an Aussie flag. No disrespect to the Kiwis. Kiwis on Crete [ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: Fairbairn-Sykes Trench Knife ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abuhabib Posted July 17, 2001 Share Posted July 17, 2001 didn't the germans gave an eye 4 an eye at arnhem? especially the polish brigade? n was it the 82nd at st mere eglise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offtaskagain Posted July 17, 2001 Share Posted July 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by abuhabib: didn't the germans gave an eye 4 an eye at arnhem? especially the polish brigade? n was it the 82nd at st mere eglise? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Don't forget about the British 1st Airborne being reduced to 1 battalion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted July 17, 2001 Share Posted July 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairbairn-Sykes Trench Knife: The points made about shooting men out of the sky are well taken PzKpfw 1, but you cite statistics from >150 meters. However, the Fallschirmjager drop over Crete is the lowest Combat jump on record - jump orders were given inside 250 feet from the ground. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The test results are to highlight just how hard it actualy is, to hit an para in the air even at 500ft (150m). The normal drop with a few exceptions at Crete was 150m, & 300m thats why the tests were conducted at those ranges. And even at 250ft the odds are stacked against an in the air hit, as plainly evident by the test % results. Regards, John Waters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT Posted July 17, 2001 Share Posted July 17, 2001 I think I have this Aussie flag you are looking for. Please contact me at desertcmt@home.com and I will email you the bmp. MikeT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairbairn-Sykes Posted July 17, 2001 Author Share Posted July 17, 2001 Thanks for your reply, MikeT, i've emailed you. I've read you might be working on a Greece/Crete/Italy/Sicily conversion set. I'd be very interested in using it/play testing it. Airborne Invasion: The Story of the Battle of Crete. by John Hetherington [pub. George Allen & Unwin Ltd.:London 1944] German Paratroopers: The Illustrated History of the Fallschirmjager in WWII. by C. McNab [pub. MBI: London 2000]: Day 1 - The Second Wave: "If anything, the experience of FJR 1 and II./FJR2 was even more severe flying over Heraklion. II./FJR 2 was almost decimated by heavy anti-aircraft fire as it approached the airfield in its transports, & many of the men from FJR 1 who managed to take to their parachutes were slaughtered in mid-air by the thick rifle and machine-gun fire coming from the Allies well developed defences. Even those that managed to reach the ground found no respite. Many Fallschirmjager were easily picked off by Australian infantry; indeed two FJ companies which landed on the western edge of the airfield faced such crippling fire that only five men survived - by jumping into the sea and swimming down the coast." pertinent reading: Creforce [ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: Fairbairn-Sykes Trench Knife ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalin's Organ Posted July 17, 2001 Share Posted July 17, 2001 % figures or not, a lot of fire was directed at Germans in the air, and a hell of a lot of it hit. Gliders were shot down by rifle fire, some pilots were killed, and one was blown up when a rifle bullet hit something inside - presumably grenades. New Zealand officers told their men to shoot at the paratroopers' boots to allow for the descent rate. BTW my OOB for Crete only lists 1 Aussie Bn at Heraklion (2/4th), and 2 at Rethymo (2/1st, 2/11th), and 19th Aust Inf Brig HQ plus 2 bns (2/7th, 2/8th) at Georgioupolis. Another 2 Aussie Bns (16th & 17th Brig composite Bn's) were at Suda. Now somehow I don't think that all of those would add up to 7000 in total, let alone at Heraklion!! Other troops at Heraklion included the 2nd Bns of hte Black Watch, York & Lancaster Regt and Leicesters, a RA Medium regt, 8 tanks (2 matildas 6 light) and 2 Greek regiments. The history I have says that Aussies on a couple of low hills at Heraklion were shooting horizontally at Ju-52's, and the AA guns there had been silent for a couple of days, but opened up to great effect, shooting down several 52's before the paras got out of them. However most of the action there does definitely seem to have been picking paras off as they struggled to get out of their kit or look for their weapon containers. There seem to have been many more casualties in hte air down the road a bit at Rethymno, where several company sized groups dropped in front of complete infantry battalions that had nothing better to do than shoot at htem. There are reports of some sticks that were all dead by the time they hit the ground, and one group were so unnerved when their platoon commander was shot in hte doorway of their 52 that htey refused to jump! The pilot came around for another pass and got hit in the engine and crashed!! The book I have is "Crete: The battle and the REsistance", Antony Beevor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted July 17, 2001 Share Posted July 17, 2001 According to "Documents From The Battle And The Resistance Of Crete" (Heraklion 2000) by George I. Panagiotakis, there were 15.603 British 6.541 Australian 7.100 N. Zealander and 14.000 Greek soldiers in Crete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairbairn-Sykes Posted July 17, 2001 Author Share Posted July 17, 2001 The Allied "Creforce", as it was termed, appears to have been composed primarily of British Forces (Royal Marines, riflemen, Commandos) & an amalgam of Greek troops (Greek Army/Navy, Cretan militia/gendarme). Australian and Kiwi (including Maori) forces couldn't have totalled more than 15,500 troops. There were also some Palestinian (No.50 Commando) & Cypriot troops - around 600 - included among Commonwealth figures. I have read that the entire garrison was just under 40,000 men total. The British Navy is not included in these numbers; it took heavy losses in coastal defense & evacuation with total deaths reaching 2200 by some counts. I don't have casualty figures for the RAF in Crete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairbairn-Sykes Posted July 17, 2001 Author Share Posted July 17, 2001 LESSONS LEARNED FROM OPERATION MERKUR [ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: Fairbairn-Sykes Trench Knife ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted July 17, 2001 Share Posted July 17, 2001 I am just finishing a fictional assault on the Rock of Gibraltar. A paratroop landing followed by an Assault from Spain of a Panzer Division. Needs to be tested for balance, then will release it. Making the Map was a pain! John, you up for testing it? You know how my scenarios are. Rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted July 17, 2001 Share Posted July 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stalin's Organ: % figures or not, a lot of fire was directed at Germans in the air, and a hell of a lot of it hit. New Zealand officers told their men to shoot at the paratroopers' boots to allow for the descent rate. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> 7th Flieger Div GR teams found very 'few' Fallschirmjaeger dead in their harnesses, almost all the dead had died on the ground after their chutes had been removed. As to shooting at boots please, what part of the German tests results is so hard for ppl to understand? on how hard it literaly is to hit a man in a chute, in the air ,even as low as 500ft Ie, 1 round out of 340 fired hit the target at 500ft, yet from the posts here you would think Aussie, & NZ Inf were dropping 9 outa 10 Paras in the air in 10 shots. A plane etc is a helluva lot bigger target then a man in a parachute ppl, so useing examples of a JU 52 takeing hits from SA fire & causing casualties etc, in the plane is moot. Australlian tales of killing German paras in the air, are just that tales. Regards, John Waters [ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: PzKpfw 1 ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted July 17, 2001 Share Posted July 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rune: John, you up for testing it? You know how my scenarios are. Rune<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sure Rune'ster, am pretty busy for a while longer, but will get to it . Regards, John Waters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted July 17, 2001 Share Posted July 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1: Australlian tales of killing German paras in the air, are just that tales. Regards, John Waters<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oh John, will you never learn? Good tale vs. reality - which one do you think will win??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted July 17, 2001 Share Posted July 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy: Oh John, will you never learn? Good tale vs. reality - which one do you think will win??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Me Andreas, never, you should know that by now . Regards, John Waters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalin's Organ Posted July 17, 2001 Share Posted July 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1: As to shooting at boots please, what part of the German tests results is so hard for ppl to understand? on how hard it literaly is to hit a man in a chute, in the air ,even as low as 500ft Ie, 1 round out of 340 fired hit the target at 500ft, yet from the posts here you would think Aussie, & NZ Inf were dropping 9 outa 10 Paras in the air in 10 shots. <snip> Australlian tales of killing German paras in the air, are just that tales. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> John your inability to take the actual accounts into acount does you no good at all. It doesn't even look like you've realised the implocations of your own figures. 1 in 340 shots hit eh? Well that's about 6 infantry-men's ammo load for a SMLE. So you might expect 1 german casualty for every 6 ppl shooting at hetm if they used all their ammo. Let's say 1 per 20, jsut for the sake of argument. So a 500 man battalion might cause 25 casualties to descending paratroopers with a rough cigarette-pack analysis. Not quite a fairy tale even according to your own figures. There WERE large numbers of German paras killed in the air as they descended, and no amount of German testing can alter that FACT Feel free to make a fool of yourself any other time you want to contradict what actually happened, and is attested to by both side. [ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: Stalin's Organ ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted July 18, 2001 Share Posted July 18, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Australian tales of killing German paras in the air, are just that tales.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well this is enough to jolt me out of lurk mode. Everytime this subject comes up, John, you trot out this test result as some sort of myth destroying finality. Well you can take your test in isolation but I prefer to look at the entire body of evidence. I can think of a few blokes around here who are about 80 who would be interested in a conversation with you about your characterisation of them as liars. It may well be that a number of descriptions overestimate the numbers of FJs who were hit in the air but their are a number of well researched and balanced books on the battle which give credence to the description of the overwhelming majority of eyewitnesses. Most generally these accounts describe decimation of FJ units during the landing phase which includes rifle, machine gun, and AA fire against troops exiting planes, while in the air, immediately after landing, in gliders while airborne and just after landing. Turning to this test. Can you cite your source for the standard jump height at Crete being 150m? My understanding is that FJ SOP at the time was 120m, though I may be wrong. Do you have data which shows that the mean distance of engagment for a rifleman against an airborne FJ was 150m? Can you confirm that jumping FJ hung suspended in the air at this height thereby maintaining a "safe" distance from the enemy? Of course if they descended towards the ground the range would close and that wouldn't make this test particularly relevant would it? Did the test include MGs or SMGs? Would it be a confirmed hit in your opinion if some bloke was descending towards you and you fired a couple of shots at him and some how or other (well you obviously couldn't of hit him as the test won't allow that) the grenades he was carrying were set of and bits of him rained down around you? Or would that just be a tale (or nightmare maybe)? Would the after battle examination of bodies by the German be of the same ilk as that performed by their medical teams who upon finding numbers of FJ corpses with bayonet wound in their backs concluded that the allied troops had committed atrocities. Of course it is the men who made these bayonet wounds who should be pitied since sticking a bayonet in a corpse that has been swelling in the Cretan sun for 3-4 days to let the gas out is not exactly pleasant. As pointed out by mike more accounts of shooting FJs in the air come from Heraklion and Rethymon where Aussie and other troops were deployed on hills and in some cases the drop zones. In these areas the FJs failed to take their objectives and were thoroughly defeated so there was some time to clear up the battlefield a bit. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>yet from the posts here you would think Aussie, & NZ Inf were dropping 9 outa 10 Paras in the air in 10 shots.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Oh yeah and what posts would those be? I searched high and low. Even read the thread three times and the only hyperbole (excepting your own) was the first post and even he qualified his comments later. [ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: Simon Fox ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted July 18, 2001 Share Posted July 18, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Simon Fox: Oh yeah and what posts would those be? I searched high and low. Even read the thread three times and the only hyperbole (excepting your own) was the first post and even he qualified his comments later. [ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: Simon Fox ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Get up on the wrong side of the bunk today Simon? or was the edited version more sarcastic?. As to how you feel Simon, or how any of you others feel, about me posting test data etc, I could care less, I was attempting to share information not realising that information would bring up National bias in some readers or personal attacks from others. I'm here to share & learn & I have an opinion, if you dont like my posting here etc then don't read it, or post data that contradicts the tests , or explain to me why these test results are incorrect etc, if my post was a 'hyberbole' why answer it with another one?, I have more then qualified my comments here IMO. Now your sarcasm aside, the figure of 150m is recited in FJ diaries from men whom made the jump, so I'm, not ignoreing first hand accounts Ie, Adolf Strauch's diary for entry for 20 May says jump height was 500ft (150m). If your interested in how many died in chutes compared to out of harness etc, then I sugest someone get a copy of the 7th FK'd graves registration/inspection teams, as well as the operational anylss report. The testing was done because of casualties incurred in Crete Ie, pit of the 22,000 German FJ 3,250 were KIA/MIA & 3,400 WIA. As to a mean no I can't give you one as the test is mereley mentioned in passing. I'm sure you can probably did it up Simon, in your uberness & all. & Simon I guess I read the posts difrently then you. Stalin As to anecdotal data taken on it's own I would have thought you would have seen how far anecdotal data will get you on this board Ie, optics, SMG threads etc, seems to me theirs any number of threads going on now or have gone on, where anecdotal data has not held up for a number of reasons on it's own. As to your math how does that affect anything I said? show me how man FJ died in their chutes or what your casualty number definition equals 'alot' or 'many' Ie, 25, 50 or what?, then we can compare that to the overall casualties for an %. Regards, John Waters [ 07-18-2001: Message edited by: PzKpfw 1 ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen. Sosaboski Posted July 18, 2001 Share Posted July 18, 2001 For the last time people... The Polish 1st Ind. Para. Bde. was not destroyed while dropping in, as "A Bridge Too Far" depicts it. Yes, there were Germans shooting at them while they came down, but they were not massacred. Indeed, Arnhem was a "semi" Crete if you wish to compare it. Best of luck with the scenarios, sound interesting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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