Hungarian AFV's in CMBB

[von Lucke]

BTS's has mentioned in their current CMBB progress report thread that they are working on the Hungarian TO&E, and it's got me to wondering about the Hungarian built AFV's that saw service in WW2:

the Turan served as the main battle tank of the Hungarian armored divisions in the latter part of WW2, and was used in quite considerable numbers. The Turan tanks and their assault howitzer derivation, the Zrinyi vehicles, bore the brunt of the fighting of Hungarian armored formations in the fatal year of 1944.

The Turan I: Built on licence from the Skoda works in Czechoslovakia, it mounted a 40mm gun (actually, more equivalent to the German 37mm), and had a max of 50mm of armor to the front. Some 300 were built.

The Turan II: Similar chasis to the above, but up-gunned with a short 75 (of 25 calibres in length). Some 322 were built.

The Zrinyi II: The assault gun version of the Turan, it mounted an L20 105mm howitzer, and was up-armored to 75mm in the front. Some 66 were built.

Hungarian tank regiments in 1944 had an equal number of Turan I and II tanks, even if the Turan I was obsolete. The Turan was first committed to battle on April 17, 1944, in Galizia, when the 2nd Armored Division launched a counterattack from Solotwina toward Kolomea. This was in a wooded and mountainous region with many rivers, which were a great problem because of the spring melt-off at the time. With all this against them, the force was stopped by small Soviet T-34 forces without ever reaching Kolomea. The attack was called off on April 26, 1944. Thirty Turan I and II were lost. That was 26% of the initial tank strength of the division.

From June to September 1944 the 1st Cavalry Division, with a battalion of Turan I and II tanks, fought in Eastern Poland and around Warsaw, and from Sept. 1944 onward both this division and the 1st and 2nd Armored Divisions were engaged in heavy fighting in Hungary proper.

Only a few German tanks were given to Hungarian units in 1944, and since the inferiority of the Turans compared with the Russian tanks was realized by Hungarian commanders, the Hungarian armored formations were committed to battle somewhat reluctantly in the latter part of 1944.

The Zrinyi II went to war with the 1st Assault Artillery Bn. in April 1944 in Galizia, and its first recorded use was July 14, 1944 at Ottynia, eastern Galizia. The vehicles fared well during the subsequent fighting, but they lacked a real anti-tank capacity. In Sept 44 the Zrinyi IIs of the 10th Assault Artillery Bn. took part in the battle of Torda on Hungary's southern border, and later, Zrinyi vehicles saw action at various places in Hungary proper. The Zrinyi II can be considered the most successful Hungarian AFV of WW2.

There where plans for both a Turan (III) and a Zrinyi (I) mounting a long 75mm (L43) gun, but they never saw production as anything other than prototypes.

[ 11-11-2001: Message edited by: von Lucke ]</p>

[Dogface21]

Thank you, that was a nice post. I too was wondering what the Hungarians fielded. Those things look like death traps in '44, what year were they designed and built? Do you have any info on their effectiveness, or were they really just death traps?

[offtaskagain]

The Turan looks alot like the Pz 35(t) and 38(t) series. And those were obsolete by the end of '41.

[Cpl Carrot]

Don't worry - they fielded them as well They also got some Pz III and IV's. Probably some StuGs as well. (not sure)

[Wolfe]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by panzerwerfer42:

The Turan looks alot like the Pz 35(t) and 38(t) series. And those were obsolete by the end of '41.<hr></blockquote>

Good eye. They were based on the 35t chassis. There's a page on Achtung Panzer that discusses these vehicles and some interesting Romanian ones as well.

- Chris

[JasonC]

These would have been fine tanks in 1941, equal to anything the Germans had. In 1942 they'd be a little long in the tooth, although the Zryini II would have made a fine weapon for that year. The Germans were still using 37mm tanks in November of 1942 when the Stalingrad counterattack began, and used short 75 tanks until after Kursk. But for 1944, these were pretty hopeless vehicles. Against pure infantry, they could still work, just as the early war tanks had worked in 1941-1942. But against T-34/85s...

[hellfish]

As useless as these tanks may appear to be for 1944, they do have a certain 'look' to them that I like. I will enjoy fighting with them if I can.

[von Lucke]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dogface21:

Those things look like death traps in '44, what year were they designed and built? Do you have any info on their effectiveness, or were they really just death traps?<hr></blockquote>

The Turan is essentially an up-armored Pz 35(t) --- and that model was first fielded in 1938. The Hungarians improved it with a 3-man turret, more armor, a bigger engine, and a domestically manufacured main gun. Though they bought the rights in 1940, the Hungarians didn't actually start production until Oct 41 --- and it wasn't until 1942 that they actually started to equip units. By then, however, it was obvious that the Turan I was inadequate --- but it wasn't until May 43 that the Turan II began rolling off the line.

The main problem was the limited capability of Hungarian production lines --- there was no way they could re-tool to a larger, more modern tank and possibly hope to turn out something in sufficient numbers to be of any use. Better these tin cans then nothing at all.

Though the Germans did sell them a few AFV's in 1942 (mostly Pz 38(t)'s and a few Pz III's and IV's), all but six(!) were lost in the fighting on the Don. The Germans wouldn't sell the Hungarians any more tanks until 1944 (mostly MkIV's, StuG III's, and Hetzers --- though a few Tiger I's and Panthers were included). This was only after the inadaquacies of the Turan had been proven in battle.

Here's an excellent page that gives a brief run-down on just about every domestically produced or licenced AFV fielded by Hungary:

Hungarian Tanks

Of special note are the Csaba armored car, Toldi light tank, and the Nimrod AA vehicle.