The German tank destruction medal

[Guest Heinz 25th PzReg]

The Germans awarded this medal to all who killed an enemy tank with a hand held weapon.

One of the more famous recipients of this award was Leutenant-Colonel Dr. Franz Bäke who destroyed 3 enemy armoured vehicles near Kursk. Bäke later commanded the "Heavy Panzer Regiment Bäke" in the battle for the Korsun pocket.

Imagine what it takes to close assault a tank with handheld weapons such as a magnetic mine. And imagine seeing a Leutenant-Colonel do just that. I can imagine the effect that had on his troops, they must have adored him for it.

Does anyone know the highest ranking recipient of this award?

Heinz

[Michael Dorosh]

One of the GD Knight's Cross holders had 18 kills to his credit, his last kills coming in April 1945. Yet he still found time to have his photo taken in uniform, with his throatache cured and all 6 badges neatly sewn to his black crew uniform. Germans were such suckers for uniforms.

Company grade officers were not uncommonly seen with this award - Hauptmann Konopka was another GD RKT officer with several tank kills. Not sure who the highest ranking recipient was, though.

The award could be earned via the Panzerfaust, but more intimate means included Teller mines, magnetic mines (as you mention), grenade bundles, etc. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

[M Hofbauer]

it was a badge, not a medal.

Bäke was a dentist. The interesting thing about Bäke's Panzervernichtungsabzeichen was that he got them despite being a tank commander. In other words, he earned them while bailed/on foot outside his destroyed tank.

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"OK, I stand corrected, but that still doesn't sound effective as the Germans still did lose the war." (Maximus)

[Michael Dorosh]

How is a dentist not a doctor?

I'll point out that Anding (sp?) whom I allude to, with the 18 badges, belonged to the GD Pz Jäger Abteilung, and his photo shows him in the black AFV uniform - in other words he too was a mounted soldier (anti-tank guns) who earned 18 of these badges while on foot.

[PlankWithANailIn]

Dentists only train for a year and then get a qualification for the dentists union or something like that. It takes 6 years to become a fully tooled up doctor in the UK, and I assume it takes just as long in other countries. Just remember dentists don't deserve any more respect than accountants.

Plank

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by PlankWithANailIn:

Just remember dentists don't deserve any more respect than accountants.

Plank

Junior, I'd kiss ya, but I just washed my hair! LOL

[Forever Babra]

Oberstleutnant Günter Viezenz, who earned 21. While browsing the net I came across a reference that mentioned approximately 10,000 Panzervernichtungsabzeichen were issued -- the equivalent of 50 Russian Tank Corps.

[Admiral Keth]

Gold

Silver

[This message has been edited by Admiral Keth (edited 04-04-2001).]

[Pvt.Tom]

I would love to read up on how Oberstleutnant Günter Viezenzthey earned all those, anyone know if he wrote a book?

[Marlow]

Originally posted by PlankWithANailIn:

Dentists only train for a year and then get a qualification for the dentists union or something like that. It takes 6 years to become a fully tooled up doctor in the UK, and I assume it takes just as long in other countries. Just remember dentists don't deserve any more respect than accountants.

Plank

In the U.S. Dentistry is a graduate level 4 year degree, that earns the title DDS (Doctor of Dental Surgery).

Maybe the jokes about British Teeth has some basis

[armornut]

Originally posted by Pvt.Tom:

I would love to read up on how Oberstleutnant Günter Viezenzthey earned all those.....

Balls a big as church bells!

[Wittmann]

Sorry to confound the myth, But here in the UK Dentistry is a 5 year degree course . This qualifies the holder to perform minor oral surgery, restorations, diagnoses of oral conditions, and prescribe drugs...just like a regular doctor.

Contrary to popular belief, dentists are professionals who actually care about their patients welfare and strive to do their best.

Then again, I might just be biased

Dr. Wittmann BDS

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Forever Babra:

Oberstleutnant Günter Viezenz, who earned 21. While browsing the net I came across a reference that mentioned approximately 10,000 Panzervernichtungsabzeichen were issued -- the equivalent of 50 Russian Tank Corps.

Brings to mind the conversation Cavscout and I had about German troops being less tank shy than Allied troops. How many American, British, Russian, French or Canadian Lieutenant Colonels could claim to have knocked out one single tank, much less 21? On this board we've witnessed two colonels with multiple single-handed tank kills. Of course, they had a somewhat target-rich environment....

[Forever Babra]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

How many American, British, Russian, French or Canadian Lieutenant Colonels could claim to have knocked out one single tank, much less 21? On this board we've witnessed two colonels with multiple single-handed tank kills. Of course, they had a somewhat target-rich environment....

This is precisely one of the points Reynolds drives home repeatedly (and then some more) in <u>Steel Inferno</u>, taking especial care to describe German divisional and corps officers with headquarters in the saddle. Other notable examples of gold braid in the firing line, such as Rommel in Africa, stand out. I have a theory about this.

Ahem. My THEORY, (by A. Elk).

I am wondering whether the less advanced communications net (or interdicted communications net) in the German Army didn't spawn this fortunate by-product of senior officers up front. If regimental or divisional commanders have rapid access to full and complete tactical updates and good communications with their subordinates, they not only have no reason to leave their HQ, they are foolish to, since they will then lose control. On the other hand, when information is sparse or conflicting, competent senior officers MUST go up to find out the situation, which can drop them into some interesting situations. Urquhart at Arnhem is a fine example of this. Just a thought.

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"Good for burn infantry. WERY cheap!"

[Simon Fox]

Lt Cols aren't paid to take on tanks singlehandedly nor are they supposed to. If they are in such a position they've done something wrong or somethings gone badly wrong. Sounds half Bäked to me hehe.

If they consistently make a habit of it then one wonders what the hell they are up to. By all means give them a medal or a badge but demote them to a position where foolhardy acts of courage aren't endangering their units efficiency by depriving it of a commander.

Don't worry soon everyone will be calling themselves Dr this, Prof that, just tack a few years onto the undergrad degree and your away. I thought bachelor of dental science (BDS) means you're a bachelor or somefink? I don't seem to recall dentists terming themselves Dr in the past, seems like some recent initiative to raise the standing of the profession or somefink? What happens if your a dentist and you do a higher degree, are you a Dr Dr dentist? Anyway having a few dentist mates I can safely say that there is not much difference between accountants and dentists as they both spend a lot of time counting money 'cept for the dentists it's their own.

Yours

Supreme Highness Fox

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"Stand to your glasses steady,

This world is a world of lies,

Here's a toast to the dead already,

And here's to the next man to die."

-hymn of the "Double Reds"

[This message has been edited by Simon Fox (edited 04-05-2001).]

[Guest wwb_99]

Well, leading from the front is a long standing German tradition, stretching all the way back to Roman times. Arminus, the first German hero, quite clearly led the charges himself. Frederick Barbarossa died leading his men across a river in southern turkey (he was thrown from his horse and drowned). In more recent times, something on the order of 160 German generals died in the Napoleonic wars.

WWB

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Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say,

Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus.

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[Panzer Leader]

Maybe they were just lowly second lietenants when the commited thse courageous deeds? Platoon and company commanders were often in the thick of battle.

I am sure they were not awarded to the officer in charge when the TROOPS did the killing, right?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

I am sure they were not awarded to the officer in charge when the TROOPS did the killing, right?

No - in that case the leader got the Ritterkreuz.

(Sometimes )

[This message has been edited by Michael Dorosh (edited 04-05-2001).]

[Michael Dorosh]

Incidentally, Simon, Panzer Leader, Babs - excellent food for thought. Great responses.

[Forever Babra]

Originally posted by wwb_99:

Well, leading from the front is a long standing German tradition, stretching all the way back to Roman times...

Such behaviour was in no way limited to Germans in olden times. We have the examples of Wolfe and Montcalm, army commanders killed in the same battle; the Duke of Wellington yelling "92nd, LIE DOWN, and leaping his horse over the prostrate square to escape the pursuing French cavalry; and thousands of others.

But in WW2 it seems the Germans were the only ones with senior officers in the thick of it consistently enough to be notable.

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"Good for burn infantry. WERY cheap!"

[Michael Dorosh]

Allied commanders leading from the front were rare enough to make them notable. Mostly in elite units - you mention Urquhart (paras). Add Frederick of the Devil's Brigade.

Rocky Rockingham (CO of the Rileys) is reputed to have personally taken a Sten Gun, gone after a pesky German sniper, and "gunned the bastard down" in a barn, but this was not during a firefight or battle (IIRC).

All the fatal casualties suffered by Canadian infantry battalion COs that come to mind, with the exception of Griffin of the Black Watch, were killed in O Groups or otherwise behind the firing line.

Griffin was only CO a few hours and more of a company commander, really, and like Simon intimates, probably had no business being where he was when he got killed.

[Michael Dorosh]

Here is the dentist himself.

[RMC]

Is it certain that Viezenz was an Oberstleutnant (LTC) and not an Oberleutnant (1LT)?

[von Lucke]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Here is the dentist himself.

Aha! At last my suspicions about the sadistic nature of those who choose a life of dentistry are confirmed!

[von Lucke]

Speaking of Rommel (and who isn't, around here?), I've seen it put forth that his tendency to "lead from the front" was his greatest failing as a commander.

Sure, he usually turned things around in the immediate sector he was in, but things could be going to hell someplace else and he'd be unable to issue the necessary orders to pull the situation together.

Not to mention the inummerable times his (dare I say) reckless behavior almost got him killed or captured. Especially in WWI --- the man was a maniac! He definitely earned the Pour le Merite that hung around his neck.

But the qualities that make a good scrapper don't often transfer to higher command. Just look at all the American Civil War brigade and regimental commanders who were failures at division and corps level.