Parachutists at Crete

[Juardis]

I know, it's a bit premature to be talking about CM3, but I'd like to see the ability to model paratroopers as they fall from the sky. Just finished reading the chapter on the Crete invasion in Battles Won and Lost. A good many troopers died before they even hit the ground or just as they hit the ground. Modeling this would obviously require a change to the engine (that's why I'm bringing it up now) but it could also allow us to go back to CM1 and model Market-Garden and D-Day ops with falling troopers.

Anyway, just a wish for the engine rewrite.

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Jeff Abbott

[Warmaker]

It probably can't be done in CM's current engine but it can be interesting for those few types of scenarios. If you're the parachuting troops, good friggin' luck especially if you drop in a garrisoned area, esp. with AAA nearby. Casualties galore. In Crete for example, an entire veteran Fallschirmjager battalion was lost when it was accidentally dropped in the middle of a Commonwealth regiment. They never stood a chance. Be careful of what you ask for...

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"Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima

[Berlichtingen]

A para drop can be simulated in CM as it stands. No more than a reinforced Company, but the actual landing can be simulated. First, most casualties are caused once they are on the ground... appearantly, it was actually difficult to hit them in the air (regardless of Hollywood). So, you have the attacker arrive as reinfocements... no more than a platoon per reinforcement point (hence the limit of a reinforced company). Set them to arrive pinned or worse if you want to simulate that they don't drop with weapons (ie Germans at Crete). Set the reinforcement arrival points all over your map. Voila... para drop. I've tested this, and if the defenders are close enough, the casualties can be gruesome. Another option would be to label the drop points so the defender knows where to go... to simulate watching them land.

[This message has been edited by Berlichtingen (edited 02-20-2001).]

[MikeT]

Berlichtingen, this is roughly how I decided to simulate the results of an airdrop in some scenarios I did for my desert mod. I didn't do the pinned and such but will give that a think tonight and add it to my scenarios. I would assume that glider infantry wouldn't have as much problems?

MikeT

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by MikeT:

Berlichtingen, this is roughly how I decided to simulate the results of an airdrop in some scenarios I did for my desert mod. I didn't do the pinned and such but will give that a think tonight and add it to my scenarios. I would assume that glider infantry wouldn't have as much problems?

Yep, Glider bourne would also have problems... you have to get out of the glider.

Just set up a new test... Crete. I had a company of Fallschirmjäger (crack with some elites) drop into the middle of a company of veteran British infantry. After one turn, the Germans had taken 104 casualties (28 KIA) while inflicting 4 casualties (1KIA). This left the Germans with 3 men and 1 captured

[Juardis]

Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

I had a company of Fallschirmjäger (crack with some elites) drop into the middle of a company of veteran British infantry. After one turn, the Germans had taken 104 casualties (28 KIA) while inflicting 4 casualties (1KIA). This left the Germans with 3 men and 1 captured

Wow! Just like the real battle. You are correct of course about placing units. But plenty did die in the air according to the book. Maybe if BTS would allow them to start with casualties that would work real well. But alas, just thinking about the multi-colored chutes gently falling from the sky...

[Simon Fox]

"I was back at my O.P. when I witnessed the most extraordinary phenomenon.

Way over to the north east was a strange dark spectre. A cloudless, sunny

day, the sky was clear except for this unnatural-looking blob. Steamboat

and Wenholz were with me. "It can't be aircraft, its too dense" We were

immobilised for a few seconds while we registered the significance of what

we were seeing. The blob was opening up so that we could make out separate

black specs....massed! "Oh ****!" "Strewth, there's hundreds, sir.""

later

"The Me110s dropped smoke markers and turned westward. We could forget

about them. Not so the Stukas. Down they plunged, with that all too

familiar frightening whine, and we suffered the jolt of their bombs.

The transports were on the other side of Stavromenos. Down they dropped,

lower, lower, "Oh hell, they're going to land on the strip." Wrong! They

banked at two or three hundred feet and suddenly spawned. Like giant

spiders, the JUs dropped from filaments their little hatchlings: white egg

casings and black ones, peeling off to lower these apparent arthropods as

we watched. Still out of our target area, we gazed with detached interest,

safe in the knowledge that they were no threat to us. It was different for

the 2/1st on Hill A. Already they were shooting at these tiny specs of

life, borne on the wing, born to die in Crete. Bodies were falling limp

over Stavromenos." -John Fitzhardinge

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"Stand to your glasses steady,

This world is a world of lies,

Here's a toast to the dead already,

And here's to the next man to die."

-hymn of the "Double Reds"

[Rooster]

You'd also have to take into account that the Fallschirmjaeger jumped without anything but sidearms. Their rifles and machine guns were dropped seperately in weapons containers. This also lead to lots of casualties.

[IPA]

Rooster that's a very good point. Perhaps this delay in recovering weapons could be further simulated by having reinforcements appear in the "suppressed" or "panic" state.

Secondly, IMO I don't think that high casualties caused by paratroopers being shot out of the sky, occurred often enough to warrant being modelled in CM. Crete was an extreme example, F Co at St Mere Eglise is another. If you look at Arnhem, where the dropping zones for the second lift had been virtually overrun by the enemy, contrary to popular belief casualties from ground fire were relatively light and insignificant.

IPA

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"Been here a week now......waiting for a mission.......getting softer.........every minute I stay in this room I get weaker ......and every minute Charlie squats in the bush he gets stronger......each time I looked around the walls moved in a little tighter...."

[This message has been edited by IPA (edited 02-21-2001).]

[Berlichtingen]

What would be nice to have would be the ability to split reinforcements into teams and allow squads within a platoon to arrive at different times (and place) as the platoon HQ. Of couse more reinforcement slots would also be nice

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by IPA:

Rooster that's a very good point. Perhaps this delay in recovering weapons could be further simulated by have reinforcements appear in the "suppressed" or "panic" state.

In the test I set up, I set the Fallschirmjägers as pinned and weary. I also indicated the LZs with labels and gave the British a full turn to react. I was able to put a platoon on each LZ before the Fallschirmäger arrived. In three goes, the Jägers were virtually wiped out... in one, a Jäger platoon rallied quick enough to wipe out the platoon they landed on... taking over 50% casualties in the process. That seems to accurately reflect what happened.

[Guest Rex_Bellator]

By coincidence there was a documentary on BBC this Friday called 'Hitler, Churchill & The Paratroopers' which was entirely about the Crete operation and the totally different conclusions which the two leaders drew as a result.

Apparently the Fallschirmjager jumped with a pistol and a couple of grenades each while as stated before their main weapons were dropped separately. Some men landed in the sea, some in the olive groves, and many never landed at all as they were killed on the way down, or later in the terrifying scramble for their weapons. One Tommy said it was just plain murder and they never had a chance.

Another consequence of the separate weapons drop was that many Cretan farmers grabbed the canisters and used the weapons on their owners. One Cretan proudly displayed his collection of still working sidearms which the Third Reich delivered to him that day. Perhaps scenario designers could have a squad or two of these outraged natives involved.

It seemed to me that the operation would have been a complete failure had one Allied commander not unilaterally decided to withdraw from the heights overlooking the airfield, which allowed it's capture and use for reinforcements flown in from the mainland. Anyway, it was a BBC/History Channel co-production so it will probably be on cable near you soon, highly recommended.

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In blossom today

then scattered,

Life is so like a delicate flower,

How can one expect the fragrance

To last forever

Vice Admiral Takijiro Ohnishi - Commander Kamikaze Special Attack Force

[Firefly]

There's a good book on the invasion of Crete and the subsequent resistance by Anthony Beevor who wrote 'Stalingrad'. As Rex points out the bravery of the local population was such that German control never really extended beyond the flat coastal stip and towns of the north of the island. The mountains were virtually a no-go area for anything smaller than a German battallion.

[Berlichtingen]

Austrailian stories of hundreds of German parachutists being shot during their decent are not substantiated by German accounts. A post-battle report by medical officers of 7th Flieger Division showed that very few of the Jäger dead were found still in harness. Tests carried out latter in the war showed that even first class marksmen could only score one hit out of 340 shots fired at a dummy figure from a range of 150m. At twice that distance a total of 1708 rounds needed to be fired before a hit was scored. It is one thing to fire at a man decending swiftly through the air and quite another to him him.

-- James Lucas, Storming Eagles

In all accounts I have read, they all agree that heavy casualties were taken before the Jägers were on the ground... the bulk going down with thier transports. Of the 500 transport aircraft, half were lost.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

One thing that has always puzzled me is why the Germans invaded Crete and not Malta. Surely Malta was of far more importance than Crete with it location perfectly straddling the Axis supply lines to North Africa. After the horrendous losses the German Fallschirmjager corps took which pretty much wiped them out as an effective airborne force from that day on, what the hell did the Gewrmans do with Crete? Soak up the sun? Because with its location too far removed from the main Axis supply lines that seems to be all it was good for... convalesence of the troops (in between fighting the local populace of course).

Anybody else know of the major reasons for the operation and the thinking behind what to do with Crete once it was captured?

Regards

Jim R.

[Guest Rex_Bellator]

Hi Jim,

The programme which I mentioned above said that one of the main reasons the operation was launched was because of intense pressure from Student to use his force in a full scale drop. So far in the war they had only been used in relatively small numbers and he was desperate to prove their potential.

Hitler was against the operation from the outset, but allowed himself to be persuaded to allow it to go ahead provided that there was a news blackout throughout the operation as he expected a disaster.

I wonder myself that if the operation had been a comfortable success wether Hitler would have consequently gone ahead with an attack on the key island of Malta. However, at the end of the programme it was said that the close run Crete operation had put him off airborne/amphibious assaults forever.

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In blossom today

then scattered,

life is so like a delicate flower,

how can one expect the fragrance

to last forever

Vice Admiral Takijiro Ohnishi - Commander Kamikaze Special Attack Force

[This message has been edited by Rex_Bellator (edited 02-22-2001).]

[Juardis]

Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann:

Anybody else know of the major reasons for the operation and the thinking behind what to do with Crete once it was captured?

Regards

Jim R.

I only know what I read. From Battles Lost and Won by Hansen W. Baldwin the reasons are varied. First, the Germans thought Crete would be an easy victory for their Fallschirmjagers. As stated above, Student wanted to prove his Fallschirmjaegers were elite. Second, there was thoughts of using Crete as a support base for the conquest of Egypt. There was also the fear that the Brits could conduct air ops from Crete on Greece and Italy if they held it and possibly use it as a launching pad for further ops. Hitler wasn't enthralled with the idea, but the thought of easy conquest pleased him, especially since he was planning for Barbarossa. The German Navy argued for Malta and in hindsight Malta should have been the target all along. As you said, Crete became worthless strategically speaking. It did however prove that airborne ops could work.

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann:

Anybody else know of the major reasons for the operation and the thinking behind what to do with Crete once it was captured?

Crete was sort of a rtial run for Malta. The intention was to hit Malta next, but the losses on Crete ended that idea. The idea of an operation to take malta wasn't entirely dropped at that point. I know that at some point the forces were being put together of an invasion (that included captured KV2s), but I don't know when the idea was completely dropped

[Simon Fox]

Juardis wrote

It did however prove that airborne ops could work.

I disagree. The German conclusion was that they wouldn't work on their own. The defenders of Crete were a cobbled together force made up largely of evacuees from Greece. They had few heavy weapons and limited ammunition and supplies. Many did not even have rifles. They had very little in the way of mortars, artillery, AA guns etc etc. Most of the infantry had no grenades. Critical was the shortage of communications equipment to coordinate the defense and hardly any transport. In all but one of the targets the defenders acheived complete victory despite these deficiencies. In fact in some instances the Cretan police armed with WWI vintage Springfield rifles gave the Jagers a bloody nose. The margin between victory and defeat was so slight and marginal that the most miniscule of differences would have resulted in an allied victory. The decision cited by Rex is but one of those. If the idiots in Egypt had sent a few 25pdrs (even 1 battery might have turned the tide) instead of the ineffective captured Italian 100mm and 75mm guns they did send. Or ammunition and weapons (eventually supplied by the Germans ) for the guys who were there instead of more men (ie the Argyl & Southern Highlanders or a bunch of commandos) who did bugger all anyway.

The whole thing is an example of the piecemeal British approach of the time (ie Greece, Western Desert, Syria etc). Once again Aust. and NZ troops were left inadequately supported and once again they nearly saved the day but at great cost.

All to often what is overlooked is that the Fallschirmjagers didn't have a huge impact on the battle apart from dying a lot. The real architects of victory were the airlanded Gerbiljagers.

Jim R

Anybody else know of the major reasons for the operation and the thinking behind what to do with Crete once it was captured?

Neutralization of a potential threat. Control of the sea. Crete is strategically placed in the Med. Not quite as good as Malta but pretty good, a big fat unsinkable aircraft carrier in the middle of the Med. Potentially long range bombers stationed there could threaten the Rumanian oilfields, that was the argument used to convince Hitler anyway. I don't think they planned to do much with it, just stop the British using it against them.

Berli quoting James Lucas:

Australian stories of hundreds of German parachutists being shot during their descent are not substantiated by German accounts.

Geez, Lucas is full of it, I like the: "we shot a lot of Germans in the air" vs the "no I didn't get shot in the air I got shot on the ground" argument. It's not as if the defenders didn't clean up a bit around them. I guess these were the same German medical officers who found evidence of 'atrocities' (ie bayonet wounds in the back) when in fact after about a week the defenders had to go around sticking the hundreds of decomposing bodies to stop them swelling up. As for the marksmanship, 150yds is too far. The 2/1st were well dispersed on and around Hill A at Retimo and had about 800 Fallschirmjagers dropped on them. In addition to rifles they had Brens and some Vickers (which were shooting up the JUs) 600 bodies were counted in the aftermath, about 50-60 were captured and the rest holed up in an olive oil factory (later captured). Many were shot in the air or immediately after landing since they just about landed on their heads. Berli is right in saying that many transports were shot down or their occupants shot up, although there was little AA around, the transports were so low that MGs were very effective.

Rex wrote

It seemed to me that the operation would have been a complete failure had one Allied commander not unilaterally decided to withdraw from the heights overlooking the airfield, which allowed it's capture and use for reinforcements flown in from the mainland.

I have read this before and it's a bit steep to drop all the blame on one guy, even if he is a kiwi . Perhaps unlike Student he didn't want the earth of Crete awash with the blood of his men. Communications were the main problem and I am not sure if he was aware that help was at hand. IIRC his unit was very short of ammo at the time. I am sure if he had been able to contact his superiors the story would have been different. In fact lack of radios is most cited as the critical factor by some authors. Actually they didn't completely capture it before they flew them in .

An operation was planned against Malta at a later time using the Ramcke parachute brigade (later to fight in the desert) and air units were transferred to Italy from Russia for the purpose. Kesserling was all for it but Rommel went over his head to Hitler and vetoed the idea. Another example of how overrated he was.

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"Stand to your glasses steady,

This world is a world of lies,

Here's a toast to the dead already,

And here's to the next man to die."

-hymn of the "Double Reds"