YankeeDog Posted September 30, 2001 Share Posted September 30, 2001 I was playing the Villers Bocage scenario again today against the AI for kicks (I felt like causing some mayhem ), and the AT (playing the Brits) did something I've never seen before. In the early turns, the Brit 2" mortar started shelling my Tiger Tank!! The tank was already buttoned, so it had no chance of killing the TC. I watched the turn several times from different angles, and there is no doubt about it - the little mortar even manages to score a couple of direct hits on the deck of the tank - not that they caused any real damage. This struck me as odd. The AI in CM is much better than the AI in any other wargame I have played, but it's still no Napoleon. Nevertheless, haven't seen it waste ammo in this fashion before. Aside from a really lucky immobilization hit, I really don't think that a 2" mortar shell would have any chance against even the relatively thin armor on the deck of a tank. What's more, it was early in the game - more lucrative targets for the mortar could turn up later on, at which point it would already have fired of most of its ammo on a target it had little chance of hurting. Has anybody else ever encountered anything like this?? Or am I missing something - is there a legitimate reason to shell a buttoned tank with a light mortar?? I suppose, IRL, the concussion from the mortar blasts might at least distract and rattle the crew and make the gunner less accurate, etc. Does CM model this effect?? I wonder. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amidst_Void Posted September 30, 2001 Share Posted September 30, 2001 No no, mortar fire on tanks is a perfectly sound tactic. I've read many-a "historical account" of mortar teams scoring penetration after penetration on Tiger tanks, and this was through the frontal plating !(yes, ahem) In fact, I thourougly encourage purchasing ONLY mortar teams in ANY given situation as mortar teams are a counter to any unit, ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted September 30, 2001 Share Posted September 30, 2001 Seriously, I use the little 2" sometimes to button a heavy tank so my Piats can cream it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted September 30, 2001 Author Share Posted September 30, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>No no, mortar fire on tanks is a perfectly sound tactic. I've read many-a "historical account" of mortar teams scoring penetration after penetration on Tiger tanks, and this was through the frontal plating !(yes, ahem) In fact, I thourougly encourage purchasing ONLY mortar teams in ANY given situation as mortar teams are a counter to any unit, ever. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Really?! :eek: Cool. I've finally discovered the secret to CM strategy. Talk about the ultimate gamey unit!! They're cheap, too!! This is better than a cheat code on a Nintendo game. Anybody up for a QB?? Now I'm going to kick butt. . . <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon: Seriously, I use the little 2" sometimes to button a heavy tank so my Piats can cream it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, good tactic. . . Mebbe the AI hadn't positively IDed the Tiger yet, so it didn't know it was already buttoned. . . I wish there was a way to switch sides in the middle of a game. . . it would be a great learning tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted September 30, 2001 Share Posted September 30, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by YankeeDog: Yeah, good tactic. . . Mebbe the AI hadn't positively IDed the Tiger yet, so it didn't know it was already buttoned. . . I wish there was a way to switch sides in the middle of a game. . . it would be a great learning tool.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This could be, because I have seen 2" mortars cream halftracks. Maybe it thought Mr. Tiger was a halftrack (light tank). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argie Posted September 30, 2001 Share Posted September 30, 2001 The heaviest vehicle I killed with a 2" was a Panther :eek: I'm not joking... I don't remember the scenario, I was playing against the AI (because Bullethead was playing such scenario against somebody and was spoiling it to me through ICQ ), and this armored column pass just over my TRP. I unleash hell. That turn a lot of 25 lbers and 4.5" falls over the vehicles, immobilizing and damaging a few, and destroying this Panther. After the turn, I look into the kills of the FOs to see who was the killer... No one was credited... Further research showed that a tiniy 2" that was close to teh TRP open fire over the column as well, and was credited with the kill of the Panther Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted September 30, 2001 Share Posted September 30, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Amidst_Void: No no, mortar fire on tanks is a perfectly sound tactic. I've read many-a "historical account" of mortar teams scoring penetration after penetration on Tiger tanks, and this was through the frontal plating !(yes, ahem) In fact, I thourougly encourage purchasing ONLY mortar teams in ANY given situation as mortar teams are a counter to any unit, ever.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Amidst_Void = Gunny Bunny [ 09-30-2001: Message edited by: Slapdragon ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wacky Posted September 30, 2001 Share Posted September 30, 2001 Where is ol' gunny bunny these days? Oh, right he got his ass permanently banned!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amidst_Void Posted September 30, 2001 Share Posted September 30, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by argie: The heaviest vehicle I killed with a 2" was a Panther :eek: I'm not joking... I don't remember the scenario, I was playing against the AI (because Bullethead was playing such scenario against somebody and was spoiling it to me through ICQ ), and this armored column pass just over my TRP. I unleash hell. That turn a lot of 25 lbers and 4.5" falls over the vehicles, immobilizing and damaging a few, and destroying this Panther. After the turn, I look into the kills of the FOs to see who was the killer... No one was credited... Further research showed that a tiniy 2" that was close to teh TRP open fire over the column as well, and was credited with the kill of the Panther <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oh Gawd, faces everywhere. Quickly! Someone put a veil over my head, hide me from these accursed facial expressions that should not be! Oh the horror... the horror... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellros Posted September 30, 2001 Share Posted September 30, 2001 I've had a 2" (or maybe a 3", not sure yet) shell my Panther on turn one, and kill the TC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted September 30, 2001 Share Posted September 30, 2001 Hmm.. my 2" mortars always abandon a tank target after a shot or two. If I want to keep pounding, I have to use area fire. I've immobilized a Tiger with 2" and once a PzIV went up in a fireball after a hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted September 30, 2001 Author Share Posted September 30, 2001 Because I have no life, I did some tests - 5 Regular 2" Mortars w/max HE load (30) behind some large buildings with a platoon leader in one of the buildings as a spotter; a Pz IV, a Panther, and a Tiger about 375m away, all without ammo. Tell the mortars to open fire in one of the tanks, and see what happens. Run the test three times, once on each tank: Pz. IV - 9 top hits, no damage. Panther - 8 top hits, no damage. Tiger - 10 top hits, no damage. The only thing that surprises me about these results is that, of 450 total rounds fired, there wasn't one lucky track immobilization hit somewhere among them. Those of you who got tank kills with 2" mortars, you got REALLY lucky. There was one little thing that I hadn't noticed before - some of the shell holes were directly under the tanks, where they could not possibly have landed. I guess this is one of those "what you see in the playback is not exactly what happens in the model" things... Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtweasle Posted September 30, 2001 Share Posted September 30, 2001 I think I recall that in the CMBB (CMBB-II ??) there is going to be a moral factor for tanks. In which case banging away at them with mortars ought to be a common thing. Now however, the pay-off is rather slim when gong after the big boys. If I am shy of sharpshooters, or they are to far off to use, mortars are good for buttoing up tanks. I can't say I recall killing any with the light mortars though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted September 30, 2001 Share Posted September 30, 2001 Just occurred to me. The accuracy of mortars was tuned way down in one of the patches. Just try it with 1.0 or something like that. It used to take about 3 shots before the first top hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Måkjager Posted September 30, 2001 Share Posted September 30, 2001 There was a KingTiger from sPzAbt 506 which was ko and destroyed by a mortar round at Arnheim. The round hit the air intake valve of the fuel tanks and caused the KT to explode. regards Måkjager [ 09-30-2001: Message edited by: Måkjager ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted September 30, 2001 Author Share Posted September 30, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dirtweasle: I think I recall that in the CMBB (CMBB-II ??) there is going to be a moral factor for tanks. In which case banging away at them with mortars ought to be a common thing. Now however, the pay-off is rather slim when gong after the big boys. If I am shy of sharpshooters, or they are to far off to use, mortars are good for buttoning up tanks. I can't say I recall killing any with the light mortars though.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah. The whole crew morale factor may well change things - especially if the Tank Crew is inexperienced, just bouncing alot of shells off of it might convince them to abandon, or at least bug out of the area... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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