Another QB AAR

[Wisbech_lad]

First off. Great game. I used to play SL/ CoI (ASL was no longer fun, too many paragraphs slowed up the game) and CM is a dream come true. Anyway, my first post here, so pls be gentle. Here's waiting for CM3!

AAR of a TCP/IP

ME, 1000 pts. Armour, Medium Farmland, medium trees, small hills, day. Random weather. Player purchase. August ’44. 40 turns. Some thoughts

In QB I only play British. I would love to post the tea recipe from “Quartered Safe Out Here” – a classic memoir of the Burma campaign, but you should go buy the book instead

Purchase: Regular company + extra PIAT (well, I did know I was meeting armour!)

2 Regular Cromwell IV

1 Regular Challenger

2 Regular Daimlers

My thinking was to simulate a realistic advance by a cavalry troop with infantry support. Assumed to have just debussed off map, thus the lack offmap fire support

Tactics: Challenger provided overwatch

Cromwells both set to Hunt/ Reverse in and out of cover

2 platoons advance using bounding movement to some cover that had LOS over VL

1 platoon reserve

Daimlers race up flank to behind cover while I wait to see what I am facing.

CO HQ in mini firebase with the feared 2” mortars

Well, I got lucky. Turned out that opponent had bought 5 Vet Hetzers and a couple platoons SS motorised infantry with reinforcements (MG/ mortars/ halftracks)

Cromwells are fast and having two popping in and out of view of non turreted TD’s tends to cause the poor TacAI a case of the shakes. Plus my Daimlers thought they would be in Berlin by Christmas, a two pounder in the sides of a Hetzer is certain death… My Challenger was toasted, but took one Hetzer, plus acted as a fire magnet for the Hetzers (that 17lb’er gun…) while the cavalry out flanked them. The Daimlers picked off the HT’s, and then merrily suppressed the German support weapons

Plus was able to take advantage of the usual “rush to the flag” tactic by drawing up my infantry short in cover. This led to a 1:1 firefight, but with my troops rested and in cover, pinning OPFOR for the 2” mortar “Hail of Death”. After realising the Nazis were all going to the flag, the reserve platoon was ordered into a wide flanking movement to cut off retreat.

Lost one Cromwell by stupidly going too close to infantry (after all Hetzers were dead, they switched to infantry support role) a Panzershreck did the rest.

Germans auto surrendered about Turn 25.

Thoughts:

- I enjoy playing Regular/ Green. This I believe makes for more realistic tactics because you can’t rely on TacAI reactions or your troops agreeing to do something heroic. The command delays also mean that attacks need to be planned more carefully, and an immediate change in axis is difficult. Reserves become crucial.

- To balance I usually insist on 40 turns plus. This allows for steadier tactics, plus the Vet/ Elite bonus that many players seem to rely on is offset by them running low on ammo. Did someone mention reserves? Plus, my Green/ Reg 25lb’er FO’s need that time! Has anyone else noticed that the delay time is suspiciously close to the correct infusion time for tea?

- UK TO&E is well suited to set piece “by the book” tactics, or rather, forces you into them. No uber tanks, no quick reaction heavy arty, just units that get the job done when used properly. Your Battalion has what it needs, and if you need more, your Brigade/ Div has ‘em. Again, reinforces the enjoyment of playing Reg/ Green, because that way “uber” units don’t dominate (an elite Cromwell compared to Regular is much less effective that an Elite Panther to Regular)

- As an aside, believe that the innate desire of UK troops not to die probably makes most of them Regular in CM terms apart from Airborne. By late ’44 we all knew we had won, and any order that was seen (at a tactical level) to be trading time for blood would have been laughed at. Charge that MG post? Get stuffed, wait for 3” firebase to be set up or borrow a Churchill. Heavy tanks? All stop, and call in Typhoons.

Anyway, my ha’pennyworth on UK units:

Infantry: Nothing special, but good organic AT ability. 2” mortars roundly abused by most, I tend to strip them off and set up small CO level firebase, it can hurt. Your battalion has plethora of support units – request them from your Colonel! (6 lb AT guns to put the fear of God into StuGs. 3” mortars as quick reaction arty and smoke, MMG carriers to cover your advance/ reinforce weak spots quickly). If you give some REME sappers a bottle of scotch or two, borrow a Wasp. Remember that your job is to make others die for their country (whether that be Germans or insufferable Cavalry tank officers) and your lads just want to get home and vote out the idiots that let all this happen in the first place. Underlooked is their cheapness – in the above battle I had 8 UK squads for price of SS motorised 6. Yes, in a 30 minute turn close range slugfest rush this is a disadvantage, a UK platoon can’t go toe to toe with SS, but if you keep the SS at stand off ranges and stay in cover as I did, your reserves can flank, or merely move up when ammo on both sides has run low and accept the surrender.

Higher level assets: 25lber. Turn the battlefield into a pockmarked hell. Note looong reaction times require this to be preplanned, or you to hold short while waiting for it to win the battle for you. On a village/ town map, see if you can persuade your R.A. colleagues that valour is the better part of discretion and bring a Sexton up front. Wait until enemy AT assets are located and/or neutralised then sit back and destroy the place in order to save it. Or if you are feeling nervous about that open countryside, Kangaroo Rams will bounce your boys across in safety. 17lb'er AT guns can be requisitioned to hold a defensive position, IMHO 6lb'er is better value on the advance

Cavalry. Yes, they all have names like Ponsonby-Smythe and would rather charge head long into a 88 AT bunker than invite a wartime commissioned officer to their mess or say “cheers” (Read Sword of Honour trilogy by Evelyn Waugh for background…) But there is something stirring in seeing them trading off protection for mobility and firepower, Cromwells and Shermans playing “peek a boo” with cover and ridgelines (I prefer Cromwells due to their speed) Fireflies, Challengers and Achilles with their can opener of a gun on overwatch. Daimlers and Honeys proving that stupid-but-brave public school boys still have a use “Uhm, Higgins, just get behind that Panther and drill a hole in it. Unsporting to take advantage of them this way, but do it for the honour of the regiment. Don’t want to have to call up those dreadful middle class RAF boys again”. And remember, their idea of fun is playing cricket, not gassing jews and gypsies, so cheer for them.

Must admit, I often buy a Humber SC or two to uncover enemy positions – a bit gamey but they are scouts. Plus the crews usually survive so I don’t feel so bad. I’ve never had much luck with the Comet, I tend to think it’s a better tank than it is so it soon dies, its not an assault tank, it’s a Challenger with a lower profile.

RTR/ Infantry tanks. Yep it is slow. Yep it can bog. But meet the UK solution to the previous war, the Churchill. And if you find yourself fighting the previous war (a frontal attack), then nothing preserves lives better than a mobile pillbox. Advance it slowly with your troops, keeping AT/ indirect HE in reserve to deal with nasties it may uncover. A Crocodile for facing SS up close & personal – because burning is what they deserve, and even the most fanatic squad soon sees the error of their totalitarian ways.

Typhoons. 81mm rockets = ouch. A gamble, but against uber tanks (and especially with a long game) a great leveller. Sit in a defensive position, wait for the RAF, then start the advance.

Playing random purchase vs AI with +1, +25% is a great way to learn the units. And if you get dealt Archers on an advance, call off the attack. Its what Monty or Bradley would have done.

As a couple of asides, my father was in the RA, but never saw action, after basic training he became an NCO teaching maths to others, as his maths skills & ability to teach trigonometry in an understandable way were too valuable to risk in the frontline. His officers had found him coaching others who hadn’t concentrated so much at school… A great great Uncle won Bisley (UK small arms target competition) & likewise never saw action in WW1, as he was too much in demand for inter-divisional shooting competitions & teaching markmanship. Again a reason for regarding most UK troops as Regular, unlike the German army competent and veteran British NCO’s were often to be found training others rather than being in the front line themselves, or were promoted to RSM/ logistical roles asap rather than staying battle field leaders.

[Ghost of the 90th]

After reading this makes me wish the Germans had liquidated the BEF at Dunkirk.

What a paper tiger the brits were, they certainly were not fighters. Ahh, but for a skinny peace of ocean known as the Channel the world would have been rid of the likes of them forever.

Pax Britannia indeed.

How are you Brits enjoying the current reign of Pax Americana?

The view from up here is lovely, it is the stink from below that is bothersome.

I can't imagine a Brit actually winning a game of CM. If I ever lose to won, I will be the laughing stock of my circle of CM friends.

Ghost of the 358th

[Simon Fox]

Nice post Wisbech_lad. A step in class above some potted AAR efforts that pop up. Interesting observations about British infantry quality.

Being an aussie I have no particular love for the poms but as for the Ghoul, your post qualifies as one of the all time pissweak efforts. It's most redeeming feature being that you have now established your credentials as an absolute historical wannabe.

[This message has been edited to remove non-international term (wanker) by Simon Fox (edited 01-16-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Simon Fox (edited 01-16-2001).]

[Guest Pillar]

Nice reading Wisbech Lad.

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum9/HTML/000111.html

[This message has been edited by Pillar (edited 01-16-2001).]

[Skott Karlsson]

Say what you want about the Brits, but they did alot for a small island country. One day the U.S. will fall too. Its inevitable. Happens to all great nations sooner or later, although I dont think it will be anytime soon for the U.S. The really big question is who will be the one to take over the top spot once our rising star falls? Any takers on who it'll be?

~Skott~

[Wisbech_lad]

Enjoying Pax America, ta very much. Always thought having to fight a war a last resort

Yes Ghost the British infantry is fragile in CM (10 man squads, few auto weapons). But that means you need careful handling to win with them, rather than a vet sturmgruppe rush to the VL with elite heavy tanks sitting in the open. Try not thinking that the game must be decided in the first 20 minutes, that keeping units effective for action at the end of a scenario is a valid tactic, and you may be surprised by their effectiveness.

As for not being fighters - well, why die needlessly trying to beat Zhukov to Berlin when all Tommies knew full well the war was won, the RAF and USAF ruled the skies and the Red Army was in steamroller mode? Many Germans saw serving on the West Front a great opportunity to surrender to opponents who wouldn't shoot them - once the breakout from Normandy was made actions like Cannes were the exception as undersupplied garrison troops were loath to die.

And read "If this is a Man" (aka "Survival in Autchwitz") by Primo Levi. That stink will never go away. Quoting from memory from the book, from the chapter on "Selection"

"Kuhn is sitting on his bunk, head bowed as he prays in thankfulness for his deliverence. What is he praying for? Cannot he see Rabinowitz the Pole eating his soup mechanically, Rabinowitz who just two months ago was a farmer in the countryside with his family and who now tomorrow will die? Does he not realise that what happened here today was an abomination that no prayer in the world can ever nullify? If I were God, I would spit at Kuhn's prayer"

I do play Germans/ US in premade scenarios BTW, just not in QBs. I find the skills learnt from playing the UK also apply when given their strenghs, the US robust squads/ support weapons and ultra fast 105mm, the German short range infantry firepower and tanks lethal at long range.

[Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>-]

hey now Pillar, Ghost is just making a joke (I think, maybe he should have put some smilie faces on his post) Fun post Wisbech_lad, plz give us your next AARs when you fight a human QB. BTW I'm up for a Tcp\IP game. I've played with people all over the world so our connection should be just fine. Tea?

[Guest Pillar]

"After reading this makes me wish the Germans had liquidated the BEF at Dunkirk.

What a paper tiger the brits were, they certainly were not fighters. Ahh, but for a skinny peace of ocean known as the Channel the world would have been rid of the likes of them forever."

This is a joke?

A few smilies would certainly have helped. And then some.

[Wisbech_lad]

Sorry Ghost, see from your profile you are American, so my diatribe on Nazi atrocities is off the mark.

Ironic though that the US military has taken the late war UK WW2 doctrine to its ultimate? (max use of stand off & strategic weapons, only commit ground forces as an absolute last resort when odds are massively in favour & victory guaranteed, every fatal casualty is a tragedy, do all possible to bring the boys home)

Compare & contrast to the Falklands, logistics massively stretched, victory uncertain, nil heavy armour and the outcome determined by old fashioned infantry assaults at night, up hill, against dug in positions.

Sorry if I have offended anyone, it was my intention to give a "colourful" AAR and notes on how I play what I think is the most interesting nationality to use in CM. And some of the (often flawed) philosophy behind the UK equipment list. Yes, US FO doctrine was faster, yes German tanks were better.

Realistic purchases & tactics can beat sides bought with a view to "best bang for the buck", such as Hetzers, Vet Volksturm SMG units, 251/9 (the one with the 75mm). Or on the other side, massed Wasps/ M8 HMCs

Anyone else prefer using "standard" or inexperienced troops rather than the Vet+ that seems prevalent?

[Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>-]

I like to mix up up myself. Diffrent tatics, quality troops, diff tanks. Who knows flak guns, yeah maybe 6 right here in the middle. Today I played as the Poles against german attack. I did it just for mainly cuz everyone underrates them. 2 6pdrs gave him a false sense of security and then they nailed 3 APCs killed some Panzertroops, even lasted over a rd till his StugIII and Wespe pummeled them Hull down. NP its only thing I had on the flank he was attacking. Then my, get this, 2 split Polish paratroops squads and the company CO, adujst themelves to a nice position covered by a hill to his main attack where then can observe and fire into his flank inf in scattered trees. He wastes all his arty on that CO and 2 split squads. Then I take out his tanks with flank attack that he ignored blah blah blah. I win with the Poles, oh yeah smashed him a little with 2 4.2 mortors. And yeah Those Redcoats can still fight just fine in CMBO also. Even all inf battles with the brits I can still win. I few nice support wep choices and U can do very healthy damage. You can with Volkstrumm too in good terrain. All about the tatics baby.

[Bil Hardenberger]

Wisbech_lad,

Don't let one ill-informed person get you down. Your AAR was good reading and I enjoyed your thoughts as well.

Anyone who thinks the Brits can't fight need only to remember the Desert war... that was a see saw affair, it wasn't all Rommel, in fact, it was won long before the Americans landed in North Africa. Also, who defeated Napolean? Oh yeah, the Brits.

Bil

[von Lucke]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bil Hardenberger:

Also, who defeated Napolean? Oh yeah, the Brits.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aaaahh -- Blucher!!!

Oh, excuse me, I think I'm catching a cold...

[Henri]

Nice AAR, but a few of your comments are off the mark just a bit.

First, the British had the best-trained soldiers of any army, and they were the ONLY Army in early WW2 that was fully mechanized, which gave them a considerable advantage.

Second, although the British/Canadians had as much survival instinct as anyone else, they fully realized that the war was not over in 1944.

Although there may have been exceptions, I don't know of any incident where British/Canadians refused stupid orders, and believe you me, there were plenty of them in 1944.

Just one example, the famous Canadian Black Watch incident in Normandy where they were ordered to assault entrenched German machinegun positions over a wide expanse of open terrain. Only about 30 men survived, but not a single soldier balked; they marched until they were mowed down, and did not "flag in the fray". There were many other such incidents, although tankfully, few orders of such monumental stupidity...

Henri

[Mattias]

Marvellous read Wisbech, thoroughly enjoyed it!

Go easy on the Germans though, the war is over and it would be a shame to see self glorifying tabloid-type rhetoric keeping the Britain mentally isolated.

Guess I jumped a bit there in my conclusions there but, well, its an emotional thing

And to all those who think Brittish infantry is somehow soft, you are quite simply way out of line.

Tough is in the mind and there seems to be a strain in British mentality that has produced some of the most efficiently brutal troops the world has seen.

M.

[Simon Fox]

Nothing wrong with British infantry and their artillery was fantastic, just the officers and their hidebound "Battleschool mentality". But a bit of combat soon knocked that out of them.

The thing about the British was that they had spent 5yrs fighting a determined and extremely professional enemy that would severely punish you if you cocked up. A certain amount of caution is not misplaced in such circumstances, in fact it is a positive asset given the German proclivity for counterattacks. It is a common mistake to see such caution as timidity. It would be just as easy to characterise their US allies as gung ho,foolhardy and prone to getting their arses unnecessarily kicked. But I wouldn't do that would I?

------------------

Muddying the waters as usual.

[Guest Andrew Hedges]

I enjoy using lower quality troops, too. One of the coolest things about CM is the way the AI the AI handles morale and C&C, and I think people who play elite/crack all the time miss out on that very cool, very realistic element.

It also requires a lot of skill to mount an attack when your troops have, say, a 20 second delay.

And the brits really did have a very competent, professional, and highly trained army in WWII; there's absolutely no question about that.