Guest Napoleon1944 Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 Here is link to photos taken from a US vet in France near Paris. Notice the T-34! http://members.tripod.com/~BMWR50S/ww2/france.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Deych Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 Well, for one that's definitely not a French tank (just like that Tiger is not a Tiger). Since Western Allies didn't use T34s, that would have to be one of the German-captured ones. The tracks look to be stripped off, and the gun sheared off...my guess would be that it wasn't destroyed during battle for Paris, but rather brought there by the Nazis for some other purpose much earlier and abandoned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 This tank was probably brought to France by the Germans for training purposes. Later in the war I think France was the main training ground for German forces. ------------------ Blessed be the Lord my strength who teaches my hands to war and my fingers to fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Napoleon1944 Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 Yes, I do remember reading on a website about Germans being trained using Soviet tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 Is the "Tiger" a JgPz IV? The "German bomber?" a Ju88? The D-Day page on that site has some nice pics of landing craft. Also, an "88 AA gun" that looks a lot more like a 37mm. ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska [This message has been edited by 109 Gustav (edited 01-12-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 Hmmm... interesting. So far as I know there were not T-34s in France. At least until tody. Yes, France was a major refitting/training area for German units from about 1942 until they were pushed out. Captured Soviet AFVs were not used in France because it was too difficult to ship them all the way from the Soviet Union and, once in France, they would be away from supplies of ammo and parts. In fact, when German units were shipped between Eastern and Western Fronts during the latter part of the war, they generally left their heavy equipment behind to be used by other units already there or on their way from another front. This saved time and money as moving a trainload of men and light equipment was a lot easier to do, especially with the bombings, than it was to move a large number of heavy vehicles and weapons. Since the Red Army star is still on the turret side, I would guess that this was brought to France, by the Germans, for anti-tank training purposes. When the frontlines swept forward, it was thrown into battle. The Germans did this with a lot of oddball stuff, including a WWI (that's right, WW ONE!) light tank. They stole it from a military museum and drove it into battle! Very interesting pics! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 I've taken a full look at this site. Interestingly enough, the 37mm gun is an "88" and the JpzIV is a "Tiger". Sound familiar to anybody? I've sent the author of the pics some corrections to the mistakes I saw. Steve [This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 01-12-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saru3000 Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 Every tank a tiger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 Steve, I just got through sending a carefully documented reply to vorlon myself. Also spotted the misidentified AA gun, but didn't have the time to go into the nitty gritty. The stunning picture of that T-34/76D got me thinking about something I saw recently on that font of wrong historical footage, the History Channel. In its programs about the Battle of the Bulge, I saw an SU-76 in a German column. Naturally, I promptly concluded that I was seeing wrongly chosen Eastern Front footage. After seeing that T-34, though, I'm really starting to wonder. Did a captured SU-76 fight for Germany at the Bulge? Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 That T-34 is in a pretty bad shape. It looks like it has been on open for several years and there's no sign of tracks at all. I think that most probable explanation is that it was an AT training vehicle. Something in the picture reminds me of a knocked-out T-26m37 that is currently at Parola Armor Museum. Two pictures of it are at http://www.pp.htv.fi/jveijala/tankit/tank3.html . - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tss: I think that most probable explanation is that it was an AT training vehicle.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, something like that. You will notice that it still has the star (presumably red) on the turret. When the Germans used captured armor in the line, they scrupulously painted clearly visible crosses on them to avoid friendly fire incidents. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Kettler: The stunning picture of that T-34/76D got me thinking about something I saw recently on that font of wrong historical footage, the History Channel. In its programs about the Battle of the Bulge, I saw an SU-76 in a German column. Naturally, I promptly concluded that I was seeing wrongly chosen Eastern Front footage. After seeing that T-34, though, I'm really starting to wonder. Did a captured SU-76 fight for Germany at the Bulge?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Are you absolutely sure that it was an SU-76? Certain versions of the Marder look kinda like one. Also, your first guess that it was actually East Front footage might have been correct. Film editors have been known to intercut footage where it doesn't belong. Lastly, how certain are you that the rest of the column consisted of Germans? It's not that the Germans were incapable of using captured equipment during Bulge, it's just that I hadn't previously heard of the SU-76 making it into the inventory on the Western Front before, and I'd like to nail this down. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crepitis Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 In a book I have at home (Waffen SS-the unpublished photographs)there is a picture of a column of SS troops marching down a street in a picturesque town staring in amazement at a T-34 in German service,complete with a large "Balkan"cross on the side of the turret and the number 222 on the rear of the turret.judging by painted advertisements on the buildings in the photograph it looks like somewhere in Italy!unfortunately I dont have a scanner to post the picture.I can heartily reccomend the book to anyone,and its available in "Bargain Books" shops in the U.K. for £9.99! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Napoleon1944 Posted January 13, 2001 Share Posted January 13, 2001 On page 36 of After the battle mag there are pictures of German t-34/76s near Trieste. The German 5th police tank company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumbo2 Posted January 13, 2001 Share Posted January 13, 2001 Interesting detail in the center wheel. The "Hub cap" is partly removed. I assume these were unscrewed to replace the wheels? I tried zooming in to see how far the grass had grown between the wheels but its too hard to tell (also the shade of the tank would reduce plant growth between the wheels). One possible source of identification for sure would be to identify the plant covering thr forward part of the shot. In particular is the barrel shaped object part of the plant or part of the tank? Great piccy _dumbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted January 13, 2001 Share Posted January 13, 2001 Michael, I've seen the column footage several times and am confident it was of Germans. I can understand your needing to ask whether it might've been a Marder of some sort, but it wasn't. I checked. The AFV in question is not in view long, but it was there long enough for me to confirm my initial stunned reaction. The vehicle was low, nonGerman looking, and had the characteristic SU-76 forty-five degree bevel cuts on the top rear of the superstructure side panels. The superstructure itself was low relative to its length, not high like a Marder's. The shot is a driveby of a German column on the road. There is snow everywhere, the vehicles are cluttered, closely spaced, and the whole column is in winter distemper. Camera was shooting to the left, with the shot proceeding from the column's nose to tail. The SU-76 was toward the rear of the column. The first time I saw the footage I had the disbelief reaction. My brain simply refused to accept what I saw, an SU-76. The next time I watched for what I thought I'd seen before. Sure enough, an SU-76 nestled snugly in that German road column. It logically followed, then, that since there was an SU-76, the column had to be somewhere on the Eastern Front. Obviously, the History Channel clip "geniuses" had screwed up. Again. But if T-34s served in France, maybe the History Channel actually got it right and the clip is from the Bulge. The clip in question was most likely in either the Military Blunders piece on the Battle of the Bulge or in the one on U.S. Combat Engineers during the Battle of the Bulge. Both have aired recently. Hope this helps. John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted January 14, 2001 Share Posted January 14, 2001 Do you have the footage in question on tape, John? Looking at the pictures I have of the vehicles in question, you are right, it would not be too hard to distinguish between them. The Su-76 has a very distinctive gun mantlet as well as smaller and more numerous road wheels. No-one has ever accused the Germans of being shy about using captured equipment, especially the SS. And given the huge numbers of Su-76s employed by the Soviets, the Germans may have captured a large stock of them. And since they were already manufacturing ammo for them, and they were fairly useful vehicles, it would have made sense to use them. If they were part of a Panzer division that had been brought back from the East Front for the Bulge operation, no doubt they would have brought their equipment with them. It's just a little odd that this is the first I would have heard of it. Well, live and learn. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted January 14, 2001 Share Posted January 14, 2001 Michael, No, I don't. That's why I took the time to list the candidate shows to help you locate the footage. My suggestions would be threefold: 1) ask the board members if anyone has tapes of the shows; 2) contact the History Channel directly or 3) watch the listings like a raptor and tape both shows the next time they air. Good luck! Thanks for the feedback based upon comparing the various AFVs. My jury's still out on where that column was actually photographed. Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karch Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 I just found out something very interesting if it's true.. the tank in the original picture that started this link... may be the T34 Aberdeen has on display. At least that's what Zaloga's Osprey book says. It goes on to say that it's the oldest surviving T34. The only 1940 model. Here are a couple pictures from my trip to aberdeen this summer and a link to a quicktime VR file of it if you have quicktime loaded. and the VR object: http://www.karchfamily.com/aberdeen/images/T34.obj [This message has been edited by karch (edited 02-01-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karch Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 ooops [This message has been edited by karch (edited 02-01-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Napoleon1944 Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 I have another book about Rommels last campaign with another T-34 in it. A soldier is getting decorated in front of it. I will try and scan it and post it. Might be the same tank! ------------------ The only enemy I fear is nature. -Napoleon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 So the Germans drag a T-34 all the way from Russia to France, just to shoot at it. OR The picture of the 'French Tank' is actually a picture of a T-34 knocked out in Russia and simply misidentified. Which is more likely I wonder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 [Never mind!] [This message has been edited by Jasper (edited 02-01-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Originally posted by karch: and the VR object: http://www.karchfamily.com/aberdeen/images/T34.obj Nice parking lot! [drool] What's with the string? Was that to help you maintain a constant distance with the camera? At first I thought it was somebody's clothesline. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Jasper wrote: The picture of the 'French Tank' is actually a picture of a T-34 knocked out in Russia and simply misidentified. Which is more likely I wonder? Normally, I would just say it was a pic from the Eastern Front and misidentified as being on the Western. But the site contained only pictures from a single vet's picture collection. So the chance, unless a deliberate hoax, is zero. And yes, it is VERY likely that the Germans did lug some stuff all the way back to France for study. There were a LOT of armored units refitting in France before the invasion. This model might, for all we know, have been from German testing facilities in Germany. 2 years pass and they get rid of it because it isn't relevant to their work anymore. Hop skip and a jump to France from the Fatherland Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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