Fred Posted January 28, 2001 Share Posted January 28, 2001 Well, here is what I wrote on the TECH board: "some minor problem with units firing smoke when not ordered to do so. Tac-Sit: A Pz IV H (VET), with more than 40 HE rounds (and 8 smoke rounds) got the order to shell some britisch infantry 240 m away(normal Target order). There was no other threat around, only this infantry in a foxhole in the woods. The very first thing the Pz IV did after hitting GO, was to fire 2 smoke rounds at the infantry, instead of HE. Then it fires HE, but not for long because its own smoke rounds screened the infantry from further fire! This happens with other vehicles too; firing smoke INSTEAD of the ordered HE ammo, even if there is no threat (like in the Pz IV example)." Here is what Madmatt said: "The smoke logic is based on two main points. #1 HE is is not having much of an effect on the target and #2 The target is actively engaging another friendly unit. Many people come back with the same argument that "Had the Ai followed my HE order it would have killed the target", well the TacAi will sometimes disagree with that assesment since it sees that the HE wasn't doing enough (or any) damage. In that case it tries to help out a friendly unit by smoking in the threat. Keep that logic in mind when you see smoke being used. It's not always perfect but than neither is war." Sorry Madmatt, but I want that Steve and/or Charles take a second look at it. You are wrong. In my example, the infantry was not firing at any one, so the only one that was helped was the infantry being screened from further fire (I hear the british, polite as they are, saying "Thank you indeed' to the the Pz IV). And Madmatt, btw, a 75 mm HE shell has some damage potential on infantry... A lot of people here, like myself, now usually fire some smoke missions on some remote place(!) on the map simply to GET RID of the smoke shells, so that in an important situation the tanks do fire HE as ordered (what they do when they have no more smoke rounds). I guess that was NOT the intention of Steve and Charles when they implemented this "behaviour"! Firing all smoke in a nonsense action to get rid of it sounds as if CM has a problem in this way. I would like to hear Steve and/or Charles (if they have time) to comment on it and to fix it. BTW, it happens often and it almost always helps the enemy infantry...they are always glad about a smoke screen in front of tanks... Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted January 28, 2001 Share Posted January 28, 2001 Fred, you failed to mention which patch you are using. Yeah I know what you mean Fred. Madmatt has no clue to what he is talking about in CM... I swear he makes this stuff up *ducks* -Tiger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted January 28, 2001 Share Posted January 28, 2001 Originally posted by Fred: And Madmatt, btw, a 75 mm HE shell has some damage potential on infantry... Not always. I have had 75mm AT bunkers blast away for 3 turns with HE at an artillery spotter, with no effect whatsoever. The spotter was on a reverse slope in such a way that all the rounds fell 40 yards downhill. The spotter never even took cover. If he had had a weapon and was firing at my men, I would have been much better off with smoke. ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manx Posted January 28, 2001 Share Posted January 28, 2001 I have seen this too in V1.1 - You order a tank to fire it's main gun at infantry and it just fires smoke. No other threat around. edit - I would like to add that when i say "no threat" i realise that that isn't strictly the case - the infantry being fired at, could & should, be regarded as a threat i guess. ------------------ COMBAT MISSIONS - Resources For Combat Mission [This message has been edited by Manx (edited 01-27-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Clark Posted January 28, 2001 Share Posted January 28, 2001 I hate to jump in here... but to be completely honest I must also admit that I have recently noticed my tanks tossing a little too much helpful smoke the enemies way. In fact, just today in the Paris scenario, I had two platoons firing at one squad in a building. Instead of helping out with some MG fire, the two tanks fired smoke, allowing the enemy squad to retreat out of site... No other threats were present at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Posted January 28, 2001 Author Share Posted January 28, 2001 well, I forgot to mention it's v 1.1 and I have a game save to proof it (but most people here know what I'm talking about). This is neither smart behavior nor "war is hell" stuff, it's simply a problem with the coded routines. And it should be fixed. Or players will continue to shoot smoke missions to get rid of this ammo type...(not a smart solution but the only solution in v 1.1). Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Olesen Posted January 28, 2001 Share Posted January 28, 2001 I just had this happen to me as well (using 1.1). A KT fired smoke rounds at enemy infantry. The smoke did not do me any good, and could probably have been put to better use elsewhere. Not a big deal, perhaps, but unnecessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Posted January 28, 2001 Share Posted January 28, 2001 Originally posted by Fred: I forgot to mention it's v 1.1 and I have a game save to proof it (but most people here know what I'm talking about). Send it in to Madmatt or Kwazydog. ------------------ You've never heard music until you've heard the bleating of a gut-shot cesspooler. -Mark IV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanco Posted January 28, 2001 Share Posted January 28, 2001 I brought this up a while ago as well, but that mighta been with 1.05... But yeah, you guys, it's happened to me too. ------------------ DeanCo-- CM interface mods: http://mapage.cybercable.fr/deanco/ so many games...so little time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Space Thing Posted January 28, 2001 Share Posted January 28, 2001 Originally posted by deanco: I brought this up a while ago as well, but that mighta been with 1.05... But yeah, you guys, it's happened to me too. I've seen it way too often also. This isn't an imagine ghost bug or something. I always thought it strange that an 81mm FO would ask for smoke to be fired into a building. I certainly didn't tell him to do it. (ver. 1.1) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Posted January 29, 2001 Author Share Posted January 29, 2001 thats what I say: a bug in the logic of using smoke. I hope that Charles find the time to fix it. Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted January 29, 2001 Share Posted January 29, 2001 agreed, the present (1.1) smoke AI SUCKS! regards, --Rett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maj. Bosco Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 I've gotta bump this one. I'd like to preface this by saying that there were a lot of needed fixes in the patch and that overall it's a great thing. Having said that there are some problems that seriously need to be adressed. Smoke is one of them. Maybe we need a new command for tanks like "Fire w/o option of Smoke". I've told tanks to fire at buildings for various reasons and they inevitably fire smoke regardless of threat level. They also fire smoke until they're out of it at enemy infantry. Fred isn't joking when he says that you need to fire all your smoke rounds into the sides of hills. It is an honest to god bonafide bug and needs to be fixed. If we tell the tank to use it's main gun we don't mean for it to smoke. We have a seperate command for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Posted January 30, 2001 Author Share Posted January 30, 2001 bump... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AbnAirCav Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 I've encountered similar behavior in a v. 1.1 PBEM with a Hetzer firing one round of HE & then its two rounds of smoke before switching back to HE (against infantry in tall pines at 260+ meters). I do have the "movie", and would be glad to send it if it will assist in evaluating the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mikey D Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 I had originally complained (on this site) that you couldn't get your 75mm gun Shermans to fire smoke at an armor target, even when AP had 0% chance against the thick armor. It appeared that 1.1 had fixed that problem when my Panthers in the Paris scenario began getting regularly (and logically) smoked-out by the Shermans during the street fighting. But one man's meat is another man's poison, as they say. I wonder just how event-specific the AI logic is capable of being fine-tuned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Posted January 30, 2001 Author Share Posted January 30, 2001 Mikey, it is very simple; there already is the command to fire smoke. So if you need to smoke a position, you can order it. And when one wants to fire (AP or HE) at a target, there is the target order. See the example above with the PV IV; firing smoke at enemy infantry when ordering HE fire (via "Target") is simply a bug that should be fixed. Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPS Posted January 30, 2001 Share Posted January 30, 2001 I have also seen tanks using smoke when it is definitely not sensible (in v 1.1). Not a huge issue, but worth fixing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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