The Commissar Posted August 15, 2001 Share Posted August 15, 2001 Tommi, Excellent story, nice job digging this up. I think its almost a given that the figures for the attackers were exaggerated. The casualties they suffered, although quite possibly extensive, were also exagerated. The Germans coming on in waves only to be cut down seems like something Holywood could cough up and make into a motion picture with a $60 mill budget. However, when we take into account the time of year this story took place (November), and the general lack of vegetation in that part of the USSR, its not too bizare that the Germans didn't get much cover in advance. What I really like about this story though is the fact that it brings to light the exploits of the Soviet Union's south western populance. While they are mostly the butt of anecdotes in Russian culture, its nice to see them get the recognition they deserve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sledge59 Posted August 15, 2001 Share Posted August 15, 2001 This material from an old PG2 site relates to the topic: Vulnerability of the Tiger Tank Here's a portion for those who don't want to click over: Even artillery could be an effective counter to the Tiger tank: From a US War Department Intelligence Bulletin (dated January 1945), comes the following conclusions from the 2nd New Zealand Division fighting the German forces equipped with Tiger I tanks in Italy: The concentration of field artillery to counter Tigers is effective. Even if a brew-up [destroyed vehicle] does not result, the tank is invariably withdrawn. It appears obvious that the tank crews do not like the shell-fire, as the possibility of damage to vital parts (tracks, suspension, bogies, wireless aerials, outside fixtures, electrical equipment, etc.) is always present. Ok, ok at least we KNOW that rifle fire never knocked out a Tiger… right!?!? Well, not exactly. A Soviet view of the capture of their first Tiger tank is recounted in an extract from an article by the military historian Dr. Giuseppe Finizio: In Romanovsky’s [A Soviet Lieutenant General] version published for the first time in Operatsiya Iskra (Spark), Lenizdat 1973 and reprinted in Leningrad Does Not Surrender by N. Kislitsyn and V. Zubakov, Progress, 1989): "I was informed that an unusual enemy tank was moving through the corridor. Our light guns fired at it, but even direct hits could not stop the heavy, obviously strongly armoured vehicle. The German tank was heading for Schusselburg and at the time our 18th Infantry Division was approaching the road. The tank came under heavy direct fire. The shells did not cause dameage, but the driver, evidently taking fright, turned off the road and tried to get away towards Sinyavino. As it turned, the tank got stuck in a peat bog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted August 15, 2001 Share Posted August 15, 2001 Thats what I am refering to Commisar, no offense, its just a bit much reading some exploits. Its always interesting when reading about one person view of things. In Brazen Chariots, the author is always deriding or condescending about the germans. He talks them down, etc, never really knowing what the full story is. Burgett does it also. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 Username wrote: Thats what I am refering to Commisar, no offense, its just a bit much reading some exploits. Of course, it should be remembered that the particular account was a war-time newspaper article and there are plenty of similar exaggerating examples also from other countries. One American example that I read about a few days ago (from Blair's "Silent Victory") was about a submarine (forgot the captain) sailing near the coast of Japan where they saw a passanger train crossing a bridge. By the time the story hit the newspapers, it had morphed into submariners gambling on the outcome of a Tokyo horse race. - Tommi [ 08-17-2001: Message edited by: tss ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 Username, Funny thing is, that article was written during the war. The Soviet Union hasn't propoganda of that sort for at least 2 decades. Americans are still doing this sort of thing to this very day! Can you say SPR's take on the exploits of the heroic paratroopers in the town of "Rommel"? I knew you could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Commissar: Americans are still doing this sort of thing to this very day! Can you say SPR's take on the exploits of the heroic paratroopers in the town of "Rommel"? I knew you could.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Point taken. I am no Shpeelberg fan though. The landing scene was OK and then the movie turned into a very long, very bad 'Combat' (old TV show) episode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babra Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Username: You miss the point. I am saying that if someone is shooting at you in the desert(they can see you right?), then theres more quid-pro-quo than in other built up, vegatation dominated terrain. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> They can see me. That doesn't suppose they can ID me, nor I them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted August 18, 2001 Share Posted August 18, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Babra: They can see me. That doesn't suppose they can ID me, nor I them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That wasnt the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babra Posted August 18, 2001 Share Posted August 18, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Username: That wasnt the point.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> What was the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted August 19, 2001 Share Posted August 19, 2001 Another interesting point is that once hit, how does it effect the crew? They cant know the origin for certain, they will not know if its a 50mm or a 75mm by the ricochet. only in the desert, would a tank commander have the amount of battlefield intel by directly observing the vehicle types hitting him. I cut-n-paste that there for you babs. Read Brazen Chariots. The author makes it clear he can ID Panzers by type that are engaging him/he is engaging. In areas like Normandy/Russia/ETO, the places a vehicle can hide and engage enemy vehicels AND NOT BE DETECTED is the point. Someone is shooting at you and you cant even determine from where. Its a big psych effect and even a heavy tank will reverse because of it. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babra Posted August 19, 2001 Share Posted August 19, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Username: Read Brazen Chariots. The author makes it clear he can ID Panzers by type that are engaging him/he is engaging.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I will see if I can locate a copy. His experience would seem to run counter to mine, but I'll see what he has to say first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juju Posted August 19, 2001 Share Posted August 19, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy: I thought there will be a vehicle morale model in CMBB <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I remember Steve saying in one of the game-site previews that it wouldn't be in. Can't clearly remember, but it had something to do with 'players not buying it when their uebertanks run away in panic after a couple of pings on their hull.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew H. Posted August 19, 2001 Share Posted August 19, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tss: The Commissar wrote: "Comrade commander, I'm all out of cartridges!" reported one of the men suddenly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I know what that's like! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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