The Loud Bang

[tenfive2]

We chat casually about armor hits that just bounce off, but don't you think it sounds pretty damn loud on inside when a round stikes the tank?

[David Aitken]

If you listen carefully when you get a ricochet, you'll hear that the crew have exactly the same feelings.

[Username]

Its an interesting subject.

Being in a tank with headphones on and the engine running does deafen you to the outside world.

Most of my reading indicates that the crew is aware that they are struck. Some describe it as a loud bang quickly followed by a vehicle shudder.

Being in very close proximity to the area hit has dangers all its own. Besides well known things like spalling/rivets popping, theres a phenomena where a shock wave is transmitted through the metal. This can lead to concussion, internal bleeding (something called tankers lung), etc. I read about one guy who had his hand on the inside plate when it was struck from the outside. It broke the bones in his hand.

Being in a tank that is penetrated by AP has been described as being inside a giant bell and having a superhuman ring it with a sledgehammer. The noise, sparks, flying debris and, of course, the AP penetrator just puncture the envelope of security a tanker feels. a big factor in this is how much energy the AP has left when it comes through. Ive read where it barely comes through and drops on the floor and also where it will run around the inside of a turret wall like a marble in a track. So being in a sherman at 1200 m and catching a 75L48 is different from catching one at 500 m.

Large HE must be some bell ringer too. For some reason, the germans never wore 'football' type helmets in the panzers.

Lewis

[Darwin]

Wait a minute. I must still be asleep here.

Lewis just giving information... No sarcastic jabs at the world in general???

Did you not eat your wheaties this morning Lewis?

[Scipio]

I currently read 'Stalingrad' by Anthony Beevor. He writes about German tanks attacking Russian KV tanks from behind. They were abolutly unable to penetrate the KVs, but after a while the crews bail out - absolutly deaf and dismayed.

[Username]

Another interesting point is that once hit, how does it effect the crew? They cant know the origin for certain, they will not know if its a 50mm or a 75mm by the ricochet. only in the desert, would a tank commander have the amount of battlefield intel by directly observing the vehicle types hitting him.

So, unless its an elite tiger crew that has full confidence in its armor vs enemy weapons (its early 1943), there should be crew morale effects from being hit. Even if its just reversing back to better cover.

Even if the crew is unbuttoned, a near miss (tracer flying by with a supersonic crack) can have an effect. Someone is trying to kill you!

Another big effect is if you can spot the firer. If you cant, then only a fool will sit still.

Lewis

[SGT_Gold]

In Vietnam, the Marines had to change their tank crews as often as once per day due to the effects of non penetrating AT weapons. I think it was the battle for Hue, but I can't remember exactly at this point. I was quite suprized to hear about this, but now it all seems to make sence.

[Dan Robertson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SGT_Gold:

In Vietnam, the Marines had to change their tank crews as often as once per day due to the effects of non penetrating AT weapons. I think it was the battle for Hue, but I can't remember exactly at this point. I was quite suprized to hear about this, but now it all seems to make sence.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The tank crews in this case were suffering from the effects of over pressure due to none penetrating hits from rocket grenades.

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dan Robertson:

The tank crews in this case were suffering from the effects of over pressure due to none penetrating hits from rocket grenades.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Makes no sense. A hollow charge that doesnt penetrate would be the same as a HE round on the outside of the tank.

Being in a tank in the tropics is hell. I once drove around for 4 hours in a tank and I bet I lost 5 pounds. It beats you up. The noise, the smells, the bumps, the constantly being aware, etc. Thats just driving! throw the strain of battle on top and guys would have to rotate in shifts.

Most RPGs would penetrate nam armor and it would be devastating on the crew when it did.

Lewis

[Dan Robertson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Username:

Makes no sense. A hollow charge that doesnt penetrate would be the same as a HE round on the outside of the tank.

We are taking about the effects of an AP round hiting the outside and boucing off ringing the side of the tank producing and unpleasant shock wave which harms the crew. Over pressure of HE (either a dedicated HE or from a HEAT round) is different while the shock wave may travel through the armour the over pressure of the local air may enter the vehicle via hatches.

Most RPGs would penetrate nam armor and it would be devastating on the crew when it did.

Yes an RPG 7 would have little dificulty penetrating any Vietnam era tank (bar perhapes the Chieftain from the front) however the cases of the crew changes being required every day were from impacts of a rocket grenade called B-40 some M48's managed to clock up to 15 hits from these weapons without penetration.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[The Commissar]

SGT_Gold,

I dont think it would have been Hue for the same reasons Username said. From what I read, in Hue, the tankers had a technique for attacking the enemy line. They would speed up the street, and when in view of the enemy positions, fire and immediately reverse. Because of the cover provided by buildings, the Viet Cong didn't get much chances to knock the armor out, although I remember reading about at least one tank KO'ed in the street, on phase line Green. (My source for this info is the book titled Phase Line Green)

However, such a technique would probably make you pretty damn nervous every time you rounded that corner and prepared to reverse off. Maybe for the longer battles in CM2 we should see a declining in morale of any tanker who has seen heavy combat as the time wears on. Do you think this would be in the time span of CM?

Very interesting issue, sadly overlooked.

[The Commissar]

BUMP'ed because this is important.

[Andreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Commissar:

Maybe for the longer battles in CM2 we should see a declining in morale of any tanker who has seen heavy combat as the time wears on. Do you think this would be in the time span of CM?

Very interesting issue, sadly overlooked.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not really, since I thought there will be a vehicle morale model in CMBB

I don't think it would be as much an issue of how long a fight takes, but maybe connected to experience at some level. 7th AD performed badly in Normandy because the tankers were too hesitant. They had fought the Germans for too long. OTOH, if you saunter to the attack as part of your squadron, and those 75s and 88s brew 6 out of 15 tanks up within the first minute, you probably want to leave for blighty right there and then. In a longer fight (30 mins+ in CMBO), concentration and adrenalin may just do the trick.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I remember a story posted here not too long ago.

Several T-34s were advancing on a German AA unit equipped with nothing heavier than their 20mm AA guns. So they opened up on the tanks with what they had. The 20mms pelted the T-34s for a short time with no apparent effect, then the tanks came to a halt and the crews proceeded to bail out. Of course, nearly all of them were cut down right away. When one of the few survivors was asked by his German captors why he abandoned the safely of his tank for near certain death, he replied that the noise created by the constant stream of 20mm shells impacting on the tank was so fearsome inside the tank that they would have done anything to get away from it.

[Guest Babra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Username:

...only in the desert, would a tank commander have the amount of battlefield intel by directly observing the vehicle types hitting him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The desert is neither a billiard table, nor an IBM clean-room. If anything, spotting is more difficult than in temperate zones, and identifying is harder still. Dust and heat-haze make good cover.

[The Commissar]

From these accounts, morale seems to be one thing, but noise shock (for lack of a better term) is quite another. Perhaps if it is tailored to experience levels. A vet crew would probably grit their teeth and bear the noise if they knew what the machine was capable of handling, but greenies are scared easier.

At least that's what it seems like to me from these accounts. Any other stories that had the 20mm resulting in the abandoning of the tank, from any front? Maybe those Germans happened to fire on over-sensitive Soviets?

[ 08-12-2001: Message edited by: The Commissar ]

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Babra:

The desert is neither a billiard table, nor an IBM clean-room. If anything, spotting is more difficult than in temperate zones, and identifying is harder still. Dust and heat-haze make good cover.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Babs

You miss the point. I am saying that if someone is shooting at you in the desert(they can see you right?), then theres more quid-pro-quo than in other built up, vegatation dominated terrain.

Lewis

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Commissar:

At least that's what it seems like to me from these accounts. Any other stories that had the 20mm resulting in the abandoning of the tank, from any front? Maybe those Germans happened to fire on over-sensitive Soviets?

]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have also read about Tigers getting just hosed by HMG fire, ATR fire and scores of light and medium ATG fire. No one bails because of this though.

A trick is to stick your fingers in your ears and open your mouth.

A factor might be how confined the tank is and the proximity of the tankers head to the armor of the tank. But russian accounts always baffle me. They demonstrate a propensity for such exagerations, references to folklore/witches/etc that I have to laugh. Someone once said that a russian cant tell the time of day off his watch without embellishing.

Lewis

[Mark IV]

In "Panzertruppen", Jentz has some transcripts of British radio traffic during major tank engagements in the desert (one of the best parts, IMO). They are ID'ing German tanks as Mk III or IV, and types and locations of guns, at 3000 yards, while shooting at one another. The desert is not all billiard table, but it is compared to Vietnam.

An armor Major I used to drive (Jeep) for in Germany was hard of hearing, from an RPG which penetrated his turret in Nam. They were providing close support for infantry in vegetation when he got wacked, and he said his legs and butt were sprayed with metal. No details (presumably it was an M48 and the round was from RPG7, but who knows?). He also blamed the incident for his hemmorhoids. I don't know what the relationship may have been and there are things you just don't ask.

There are many anecdotes in Jentz and elsewhere of Russian crews in T34s (not just KVs) withstanding terrific punishment, while fighting on until dug out by hand with explosives and incendiaries. A lot of it comes down to the crew and its leadership.

[Michael Emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

I don't think it would be as much an issue of how long a fight takes, but maybe connected to experience at some level. 7th AD performed badly in Normandy because the tankers were too hesitant. They had fought the Germans for too long.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I too am reminded that there isn't necessarily a linear relationship between experience and toughness. For instance, a more experienced crew might be quicker at sizing up the odds and deciding on the better part of valor, whereas a green crew might hang in there and try to stick it out...and get their butts shot off as a consequence. Alternatively, they might just turn the tide of battle. It's hard to predict some of the effects of experience.

Michael

[The Commissar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Username:

But russian accounts always baffle me. They demonstrate a propensity for such exagerations, references to folklore/witches/etc that I have to laugh. Someone once said that a russian cant tell the time of day off his watch without embellishing.

Lewis<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not this piqued (SP?) my interest. Do provide a few accounts, because from what Ive read everything seemed pretty realistic. Witches?!?

"In 1941, 3 Germans ventured into the Eastern Front. 60 years later, the footage from their ill-fated excursion was discovered.

Prepare yourself. The Eastern front just got a whole lot spookier.

"The Baba-Yaga Witch project"

[ 08-12-2001: Message edited by: The Commissar ]

[tss]

tenfive2 wrote:

We chat casually about armor hits that just bounce off, but don't you think it sounds pretty damn loud on inside when a round stikes the tank?

Two examples: (from my standard stock)

On 26 June 1944 during the Portinhoikka counter attack, a Soviet T-34-85 got a hit on a Finnish KV-IE, but the shot ricocheted away. The impact noise bursted some eardums of the crew, and they bailed out running to the cover of forest.

On the night between 14th and 15th June, a Soviet 152mm artillery shell landed some meters away from a Finnish StuG-IIIG. The explosion was so loud that the crew thought they had struck a mine and quickly bailed out to escape before the vehicle would catch fire. When the error was finally found out, Soviets had already advanced so close that it was impossible to salvage the vehicle, or even to destroy it.

- Tommi

[Andreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tss:

Two examples: (from my standard stock)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What we all want to know Tommi - if that is your standard stock, what is in your non-standard stock?!?!?!?!

Commissar, that was funny.

[tss]

Germanboy:

What we all want to know Tommi - if that is your standard stock, what is in your non-standard stock?!?!?!?!

Well, in this case "standard" as in "I have posted both at least three times before". However, they are also "standard" in the sense that both are mentioned in just about any book about Finnish armored warfare. (Unfortunately, as far as I know, none has been translated to English or other easily accessible language).

I would guess that the non-standard stock is something that is mentioned only in passing on some book that has been out of print since 1944 (I have found several books of that kind from old-book stores). (One interesting tidbit that I came across this summer was that the commander of my grandfather's company (1./JR 37) actually ordered a NCO to raise a battle standard when they started the attack to Särkisyrjä (thus violating the old tradition that the flag-bearer should be a 2nd Lt.). Surprisingly, the standard-bearer survived even though the standard didn't.)

BTW, coming back to the topic of the thread. There are many pictures of the above mentioned KV-IE m 1942 on Internet. The first one that came up with a Google search is at http://www.pp.htv.fi/jveijala/tankit/tank8.html . The ricochet marks are painted red. (It is the same round at all places).

- Tommi

[tss]

The Commissar wrote:

Not this piqued (SP?) my interest. Do provide a few accounts, because from what Ive read everything seemed pretty realistic. Witches?!?

This following doesn't have anything to do with witches, I just think that it is a case where a Soviet propagandist most probably strayed from reality to create a more touching account. It would be really interesting to know what really happened.

(Note that I'm not implying that all Soviet sources are inreliable. Or to be more exact, I consider just about every newspaper hero-story--no matter the originating country--suspect without an outside confirmation.)

From "Their Name is Legion", Moscow 1945, a collection of English translations of Soviet war-time newspaper stories:

ELEVEN MEN

Northwest of Stalingrad

Komsomolskaya Pravda

November 5, 1942

"Today the whole front is talking about the heroic deed of eleven brave men: Mikhail Kabribov, Babayar Gaparov, Abdurakhman Irdanov, Diar Akhmedov, Sapkhar Poiziev, Narmurad Khaitov, Saipir Mordanov,

Khudaikul Musaev, Bakhmarim Alibekov, Sabir Tlepov, Tamel Khuzin. The hill for which they fought has been named "The Hill of the Eleven

Heroes of the East." Here is the story of this fierce battle.

A group under the command of Second Lieutenant Mikhail Kabribov--nine Uzbeks, one Kazakh and one Tatar--was holding a hill which commanded a view over the surrounding terrain. The Germans had made a number of

attempts to capture this hill but the men who were holding it kept them off. All the attempts of the enemy to capture the hill with small forces were repulsed. Thereupon the Germans attacked with a force of

about three hundred men, who were given orders to take the hill at all costs.

Kabribov coolly took the enemy's measure when he caught sight of the attackers.

"It'll have to be thirty Fritzes for every bayonet of ours. If there's anyone who's afraid, I want him to leave the ranks immediately," he said.

No one stirred.

"Then let us swear to die rather than retreat," said Kabribov loudly, "so that our names will be uttered with pride in our native East and not with curses."

He ordered the men to take up a circular defence.

The Germans advanced on the hill at full height. The first volley sounded. The enemy fell to the ground as if they were moved down. Some of them remained lying forever, others crawled on. The first Nazi

platoon reached the hill on their bellies. They jumped to their feet and rushed forward.

"Let 'em have it, Gaparov!" shouted Kabribov.

Machine gunner Gaparov's well-aimed burst cut down the German platoon, but others were coming on. The air was filled with the deafening chatter of tommy-gun and rifle fire. Fierce fighting ensued. The

Germans sustained heavy losses, but could not gain the top of the hill.

"Figure that we've done for half of the Nazis. That means we can wipe out the rest of them!" shouted Kabribov, carried away by the

excitement of the battle.

"Comrade commander, I'm all out of cartridges!" reported one of the men suddenly.

At about the same time the cartridges of some of the other men also gave out.

"Fix bayonets! Follow me!" shouted the Commander and jumped out of the trench to encounter the Germans. All ten men followed him. Even Gaparov, who had been wounded, went into the bayonet attack. Blood was streaming down his face as he shouted "Hurrah!" in a fearful and menacing voice.

In the had-fought bayonet encounter that followed all was turmoil...

Several hours later a unit of Red Armymen who had come up to the rescue pushed back the Nazis. Here the men saw a mountain of German

corpses, the result of the hand-to-hand encounter. By holding the Nazis at the approaches to the hill and destroying a large number of their officers and men, the eleven sons of the East had made it possible for our unit to deploy and throw back the enemy.

While searching for the bodies of the heroes who had died the death of the brave, our men heard a faint groan. It was the machine gunner Babayar Gaparov, whose life blood wast fast ebbing away. He told his comrades about this battle.

"We did not let them pass," he whispered. These were his last words. He died in his comrades' arms.

No! They did not let the enemy pass! A Tatar, a Kazakh, and nine Uzbeks--on Russian soil they defended the high mountains of the

Caucasus and sunlight of Central Asia."

The booklet in question contains an amazing number of heroic stories relayed by mortally wounded men...

- Tommi