rlh1138 Posted October 24, 2001 Share Posted October 24, 2001 Just got this book, 'In Deadly Combat', by Herr Bidermann, thought some of the historian/grogs on here might give me the current take on this guy, re: accuracy, correctness, etc. Or point me to places on the 'net where I might that sort of stuff and read for myself. Just started it, but already ran into an interesting comment in the Introduction (Dennis Showalter) about German squads, after '41, being built around the MG-42, with the others in the squad being mainly ammo bearers and protectors of the gun crew. Kind of relates to an earlier thread around here about the importance of those guns, etc. Thought this book might have been discussed already, but the search engine still doesn't seem to do anything. Any comments, etc. appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 24, 2001 Share Posted October 24, 2001 I suggest the message board at www.feldgrau.com as a great place to start for discussions of this sort. Yes, your comment does seem to dovetail neatly with Sgt Steiner's post of that quote from the British platoon commander, and what he says about MG 42s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer_Meyer Posted October 24, 2001 Share Posted October 24, 2001 I got this book about 6 months ago. Read through it and found it one of the best veteran memoirs I've aver read. (I haven't read to many though). Anyway, I though it to be a good book, altough he does tend to get equipment and tank IDs wrong, you have to keep in mind, it's been probably 20-40 years since the war, so this might make it a bot difficult to remeber certain things. This is pointed out in the book by the translator and editor. This book takes you trough the war in the eyes of this one soldier. From serving as an anti-tank gun crew, to a Officer commading a soldiers of his own. He writes goes into great detail explaining the battles he was part of. I am about to read it for the second part. I am going to do an entire scenario pack following the Bidermann's 132nd infantry division. More like his regiment though as in some battles they were saparated and other regiments wiped out. Anyway, good reading and I hope you like it as much as I did. Good Book! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted October 24, 2001 Share Posted October 24, 2001 On the subject of German memoirs I thoroughly recommend "To young to be a hero" by Rick Holz. He spent most of his time on the Eastern Front and was evacuated very late from Stalingrad. Mind you the picture he paints isn't exactly going to please the starry-eyed Heer worshipping crowd. A German battalion shooting their fire-eating commander after he opens up on them when they refuse a suicidal attack might not be glorious enough hehe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 24, 2001 Share Posted October 24, 2001 Germanboy, how do you say "fratricide" in deutsch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 24, 2001 Share Posted October 24, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Germanboy, how do you say "fratricide" in deutsch? <hr></blockquote> Bruderschlag? That's probably not exact, but it was the first thing that came to mind. And it kind of rolls off the tongue in a nice, Germanic sort of way. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patgod Posted October 24, 2001 Share Posted October 24, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Simon Fox: On the subject of German memoirs I thoroughly recommend "To young to be a hero" by Rick Holz. He spent most of his time on the Eastern Front and was evacuated very late from Stalingrad. Mind you the picture he paints isn't exactly going to please the starry-eyed Heer worshipping crowd. A German battalion shooting their fire-eating commander after he opens up on them when they refuse a suicidal attack might not be glorious enough hehe.<hr></blockquote> no, just smart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 24, 2001 Share Posted October 24, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Michael emrys: Bruderschlag? That's probably not exact, but it was the first thing that came to mind. And it kind of rolls off the tongue in a nice, Germanic sort of way. Michael<hr></blockquote> But a truly good German word is a horrifyingly long compound made up of several smaller words...panzergrenadierlehrregiment for example. How about sumtin like bruderschlagimfeuerkampf...(?) [ 10-24-2001: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogadai Posted October 24, 2001 Share Posted October 24, 2001 I'm presently reading "Frontsoldaten: The German Soldier in World War II" by Stephen Fritz. It is an overview of the experience of the common German soldier on all fronts but most particularly the Eastern one, based on letters, diaries and interviews. I'm only a third of the way through but its quite a good read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted October 24, 2001 Share Posted October 24, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Germanboy, how do you say "fratricide" in deutsch? <hr></blockquote> I have no idea - "Kreuzfeuer" (cross firing), "eigenes Feuer" (own forces fire), or, in 'New German' "friendly fire" come to mind. Of course this never happened in the German Uberwehrmacht, so there was really no need to have a word for it. You should know that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 24, 2001 Share Posted October 24, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ogadai: I'm presently reading "Frontsoldaten: The German Soldier in World War II" by Stephen Fritz. It is an overview of the experience of the common German soldier on all fronts but most particularly the Eastern one, based on letters, diaries and interviews. I'm only a third of the way through but its quite a good read.<hr></blockquote> This book is an abortion - do NOT waste your time on it if you are a serious historian. Fritz cribs about 1/3 of it from Guy Sajer - you know, the fictional account of GD? Fritz does a terrible job of research - how do you write a book about German soldiers without ever conducting a single interview with one? There are plenty still alive, but Fritz never bothered to talk to one. It's an amateurish attempt, yet unfortunately, in English, no one has come up with anything better - or close to the same kind of detailed social history that say, Desmond Morton did on Canadian WW I soldiers, or anything like the book FACE OF BATTLE which studied British soldiers at Agincourt, Waterloo and the Somme. FRONTSOLDATEN is a joke. A quick look at the footnotes will reveal how thin the research is - a first year undergrad knows not to quote the same source over and over and over again, or several times consecutively. [ 10-24-2001: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlh1138 Posted October 24, 2001 Author Share Posted October 24, 2001 Thanks for the comments and suggestions. Rommel22, let me know when that scenario gets done. I've already learned from reading this book that the Pak40 was used pretty effectively as a anti personnel weapon, I'd been thinking of it as anti tank only. Chilling descriptions of some tank engagements vs. his gun crew, and 'human wave' assualts from Soviet navel troops outside Sevastapol (sp). Good book so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer_Meyer Posted October 24, 2001 Share Posted October 24, 2001 rlh, I will make a whole scenario pack covering bidermann's battles he was part of. So there will be quite a few. Anyway, bidermann gives good insight on what happened in the battle and which company and/or regiment took part. This is great help, and he does remeber most of the town or places these battles took place. He has some really good pictures too, like the one of the T-60 he knocked out with his 37mm pak about 60-100m in front of his position. He describes that scene real well. btw, he looks bad ass in some of those pictures. With a pipe, or leaning up on a binker wall with his 37mm pak in front of him. Just bad ass, basicly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 I didn't think Frontsoldaten was so bad, but I didn't scour the end notes. And I don't subscribe to theory that Sajer is a fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogadai Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 Thanks, Michael, I'll bear your comments in mind. Indeed, after reading them, I looked through the bibliography and couldn't even find Sojer's name mentioned. I do note he does use some novels that he acknowledges in his bibliography. The use of fictionalised accounts isn't, in itself, a bad thing, if they are acknowledged as being fictionalised. I must admit that when I continued my reading after reading your comment, I did notice that somehow, some of the things claimed sounded a bit hollow. His portrayal of battle as complete chaos makes me wonder who any objective was achieved. Even if it is flawed, its an interesting effort to tackle a much neglected subject. You're right Keegan does do a better job but he doesn't attempt to draw, as far as I can remember on anything other than English language accounts. I'm presently wading (the only word that really describes what I'm doing) through the section in Fritz's book on field discipline. Not nice. I wonder how well the Germans would have done if they'd been more lenient and instead of hanging everybody for minor offences, such as losing equipment during a retreat, they'd welcomed the soldiers back and simply provided them with new weapons and put them back into the frontline? I find some of the episodes about fears of having units broken up and the men used piecemeal in some ways similar to what I've read about the reaction of certain Australian units in the 1st AIF to being broken up, due to manpower shortages, late in WWI. It seems that comradeship is a universal constant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ogadai: I find some of the episodes about fears of having units broken up and the men used piecemeal in some ways similar to what I've read about the reaction of certain Australian units in the 1st AIF to being broken up, due to manpower shortages, late in WWI. It seems that comradeship is a universal constant.<hr></blockquote> The same thing happened in 51st Highland Div in WW II; when returning soldiers from either North Africa or Sicily (men who had been wounded) came back to the div and put into another regiment, I seem to remember that there was a bit of a mutiny; details are sketchy and I don't have time to look it up; perhaps Germanboy or Simon can elaborate. I wonder how much about German field discipline has been exaggerated - or how poorly North Americans today relate to the Germans of WW II. I have done a bit of research into it - see my site at http://members.home.net/deutschesoldaten/ for mostly uniform stuff, but also a bit about tradition and military procedures. The Germans were very much "anal retentive" even in civilian society (for example, keeping the familiar term for "you" for people you've only known for dozens of years, etc.) and what may seem weird to us was probably normal to a German - intense discipline included. The idea of a "German work ethic" was very much a reality, and your standard German expected to be driven hard. The trouble with English writers on the subject (myself very much included) is a lack of perspective on who the Germans really were and how they thought from day to day. Just about everything they did was alien to how we do things. They didn't put their names on their dogtags - stop and think about that for a second. They shot officers just because they lost a battle. Unheard of among the western Allies. Hard to relate to them in any meaningful ways without good research to guide us. Fritz doesn't provide it, unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogadai Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 Michael, I found your site on the Landser interesting and in particular the page on Guy Sojer. I think it all comes down to what you view history as. Kennedy and yourself, if I can be so body, tend to see history about facts, dates, figures, etc. Sojer admits he wasn't writing history but rather a personal narrative. I believe such narratives are useful for conveying the personal experiences of the individual but they shouldn't necessarily be considered as being not history. Rather they are an example of what I believe is called "history from below". Its a useful source for "flavour", I think. It tells, if excerts in Fritz's book are anything to go by, what it was like to be a Landser, rather than what the German soldiers did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted October 30, 2001 Share Posted October 30, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: The same thing happened in 51st Highland Div in WW II; when returning soldiers from either North Africa or Sicily (men who had been wounded) came back to the div and put into another regiment, I seem to remember that there was a bit of a mutiny; details are sketchy and I don't have time to look it up; perhaps Germanboy or Simon can elaborate. <hr></blockquote> You called? Problem is - book in London, me in Berlin, debating whether I can be arsed to go to the museum of surrender in Karlshorst later (probably will). Case that comes to mind is after the destruction of 1st DCLI (all numbers - handle with care) south of Tobruk, the survivors (about 150 men, IIRC) were put together with the survivors of two other battalions to reform a KRRC battalion (the number of which I have forgotten) in Cyprus. Godfrey, the historian of the DCLI, dwells at length on the problems this caused. Later, he mentions that 5th DCLI benefitted a lot from having most of their losses at Cornwall Wood replaced by a draft from 4th DCLI that had just arrived in Normandy, and that this contributed to the quick and successful rebuild. There is a book called Queen Victoria's Little Wars, that has a nice treatment of the regimental system in the appendix. BTW, I did not think that Bidermann looked 'Badass' at all - more like he looked a bit lost to me, with his glasses and pipe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted October 30, 2001 Share Posted October 30, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Germanboy, how do you say "fratricide" in deutsch? <hr></blockquote> "Brudermord"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted October 31, 2001 Share Posted October 31, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Sergei: "Brudermord"?<hr></blockquote> Literally, yes. In the military sense, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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