Col Deadmarsh Posted July 12, 2001 Author Share Posted July 12, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jarmo: Tanks usually fire what they think is the most effective weapon. Coaxial MG and main gun are mutually exclusive, you can only fire one or the other. For puny little guns like Stuarts 37mm, the MG is more effective, except for long ranges. Sherman's 75mm is more effective than the MG, except for the real short ranges when the target is in the open. Bow MG and the Flexible MG always fire if they have ammo. Commander needs to be alive and unbuttoned to operate the flexible MG. Note, if the commander is wounded or killed, both bow MG and flexible MG go silent.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Why would the bow mg go silent if the commander was killed? The commander doesn't even operate the bow mg, does he? Also, can anyone tell me where the co-axial mg is on a tank. I assume it's on the side of the hull somewhere but is it always on the right or left or what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offtaskagain Posted July 12, 2001 Share Posted July 12, 2001 The coax is mounted right next to the main gun. Hence it being co-axial to the main gun. It's opening provides one of the turret front weak spots, though it's rather small. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted July 12, 2001 Author Share Posted July 12, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by panzerwerfer42: The coax is mounted right next to the main gun. Hence it being co-axial to the main gun. It's opening provides one of the turret front weak spots, though it's rather small.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I thought the mg by the main gun was the bow mg. Okay, so where exactly is the bow mg then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted July 12, 2001 Share Posted July 12, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh: I thought the mg by the main gun was the bow mg. Okay, so where exactly is the bow mg then?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The bow MG is mounted on the front hull of the WW2 tanks opposite the driver. If you get a chance look at some WW2 photos of yjr frontal aspect of Shermans etc. You will see the bow 30.cal MG. The Co-axel MG was mounted beside the main gun in the turret, WW2 also occasionaly used the Co-Axel for sighting as well. On an accuracy/opticaal note from past discussions British Centurion tanks in the 1950's had US 50cal MGs co-axel mounted & modified to fire 3 round bursts of special tracer ammunition for sighting purposes. In tests using the 50cal to range they scored 90% 1st round 105mm hit's out to & above 1000m . This method was superior in results to all optical & range device results obtained at that time, but it was never adopted. Regards, John Waters [ 07-12-2001: Message edited by: PzKpfw 1 ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzman Posted July 12, 2001 Share Posted July 12, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MikeyD: I've found a paper written on conducting desert warfare by Gen Patten himself(!) in which he states the mgs on a tank are by far more lethal and useful than the gun. Of course he was writing early in the war (or perhaps even prewar?) when tank guns weren't much to brag about yet. When your tank stats say 60 rounds remember only -15-20 of them are ready rounds and half of those could be smoke or AP. This means after firing a few rounds into the bushes in an attempts to kill some enemy the loader got to get on his hands and knees and start hefting more rounds into the racks again. After a couple engagements where you thoroughly exhaust your poor loader using the mgs more start to look like a pretty good idea<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> At his point he mite have been talking about the M3 Medum tank (Not the light M3 stuart) as its HE firing gun was a fixed 75mm if I remember correctly. And there was a turel 37mm AP gun. So the 75mm fixed gun would be very hard to use on infantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted July 12, 2001 Share Posted July 12, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh: Why would the bow mg go silent if the commander was killed? The commander doesn't even operate the bow mg, does he? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is one thing in the game that really annoys me. If a crewmember is killed, the crew shuffles their positions, the bow MG/radio operator has the most unimportant position, so it always ends up unmanned. There are 2 nasty bits here. 1. Despite someone taking the commanders job, you still can't unbutton&fire the flexible MG. 2. (this is the real bitch) If you get a gun damaging hit, killing someone (gunner or loader most likely: - The tank remains buttoned after that, no more fexible MG. (it seems assumed the commander is always the casualty) - Both main gun and the coaxial stop working. (they are intelinked so it's only natural) - Bow MG is abandoned, so that the broken main gun can stay fully manned. So, with one hit and one casualty, the tank loses 3 MG's and the main gun. Admittedly, in reality a tank in this condition would be withdrawn (conditions permitting), so the problem is not all that huge really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumvir Posted July 12, 2001 Share Posted July 12, 2001 PzKpf 1, as far as I know, the Israeli Centurions in 67 and 73 used .50 spotter rifles coaxial to their main guns. I know for a fact that 106mm RCL rifles used spotter rifles to help assist in firing. These weren't MGs, though, but rifles which had ballistic profiles that matched their main gun's profiles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted July 12, 2001 Share Posted July 12, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Triumvir: PzKpf 1, as far as I know, the Israeli Centurions in 67 and 73 used .50 spotter rifles coaxial to their main guns. I know for a fact that 106mm RCL rifles used spotter rifles to help assist in firing. These weren't MGs, though, but rifles which had ballistic profiles that matched their main gun's profiles.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Dunno the text identified them as M2 50Cal MGs modified to fire 3 round bursts & useing special tracer ammuntion. It also states this method was never adopted. Regards, John Waters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted July 12, 2001 Share Posted July 12, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1: So have I Capt, & I didn't know we were discussing a Co of tanks engageing Inf in ideal conditions. Inf doesn't just conviently expose themselves to a tank Co or Bn for target practice. & your still limited by what the gunner can see etc. I never said HE wasn't effective, just that once Inf entered MG range the MG was more effective, then the gunner sitting their shooting HE at single moveing targets Regards, John Waters<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Exactly, John. On the M1s, we were trained to just spray an area with MG fire to suppress infantry targets. Hehe...You can barely even aim the loader's M240 without a lot of practice. When engaging with the coax MG, you're taught to use sweeping, Z patterns to saturate the area with fire. You simply can't suppress the same area with a main gun round - even with HE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted July 12, 2001 Share Posted July 12, 2001 Too lazy to fire up my scanner right now, but the following is an excerpt from "Panzertaktik" by Wolfgang Schneider. It's taken from a german training manual. "Choice of Weapons for the Panzerkampfwagen II and III" Illustration 1 Wront! Combating a machinegun with the slow-firing cannon wasters ammunition. Right! Eliminating the enemy machinegun with the rapid-firing machinegun. Illustration 2 Wrong! Engaging an enemy antitank gun at 500 meters with machine gun fire. The machine gun fire does not penetrate the shield on the antitank gun. Right! Engaging the antitank gun with the cannon. The shield is penetrated, the weapon destroyed, the crew eliminated. Illustration 3 Wrong! Firing on a column of troops with the slow firing cannon. Success is limited. Right! Sweeping the target with the rapid firing machine gun promises success. Illustration 4 Wront! Engaging the antitank gun at a range of 400 meters with the cannon when the antitank gun is firing in another direction. Right! Firing into the unprotected flank of the antitank gun crew with all machine guns brings a more rapid and certain success. Illustration 5 Wrong! Firing on the embrasure of a bunker with the machine gun. That brings little real success. Right! Making the embrasure unusable with cannon fire. Illustration 6 Wrong! Firing on enemy armor at a range of 800 meters with the 2cm cannon. That wastes ammunition and is unsuccessful. Right! Allowing the enemy armor to approach to within at least 600 meters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted July 12, 2001 Share Posted July 12, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1: The bow MG is mounted on the front hull of the WW2 tanks opposite the driver. If you get a chance look at some WW2 photos of yjr frontal aspect of Shermans etc. You will see the bow 30.cal MG. The Co-axel MG was mounted beside the main gun in the turret, WW2 also occasionaly used the Co-Axel for sighting as well. On an accuracy/opticaal note from past discussions British Centurion tanks in the 1950's had US 50cal MGs co-axel mounted & modified to fire 3 round bursts of special tracer ammunition for sighting purposes. In tests using the 50cal to range they scored 90% 1st round 105mm hit's out to & above 1000m . This method was superior in results to all optical & range device results obtained at that time, but it was never adopted. Regards, John Waters [ 07-12-2001: Message edited by: PzKpfw 1 ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> One more point to add, is that as mentioned above, the coaxial MG and main gun are both fired by the gunner. They use the same sights, and usually the same controls, and therefore can't be fired simultaneously (at least not any vehicle that I've been in). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panzerman: At his point he mite have been talking about the M3 Medum tank (Not the light M3 stuart) as its HE firing gun was a fixed 75mm if I remember correctly. And there was a turel 37mm AP gun. So the 75mm fixed gun would be very hard to use on infantry.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The sponson-mounted 75mm was not "fixed and in fact had a fairly wide arc of fire (about 30 degrees IIRC) and was specifically intended to take on HE type targets. The 37mm turret gun was at the time the premier AT gun in the Army's thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalin's Organ Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 HMG's were the standard means of ranging on all British tanks before laser range-finders. Maybe your source was talking about American AFV's? I don't know whether they used it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stalin's Organ: HMG's were the standard means of ranging on all British tanks before laser range-finders. Maybe your source was talking about American AFV's? I don't know whether they used it or not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The results were passed on to the US, the US wasn't interested. Regards, John Waters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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