Lousy British Troops??-- Villiers Bocage Spoiler

[Terence]

Hello,

I was playing the Villiers Bogage scenario with Wittman in his one tank, and I was surprised to see that the British troops in that scenario were rated green and conscripts.

Were the elements of the British 7th Armored Division that Wittman faced really at that level, (Had none of Her Majesty's soldiers in action that day seen any action in North Africa and so on?)

Or is their quality a flourish of the scenario designer so that a persistent player can duplicate Wittman's feat.

[Chupacabra]

It's a bit of both.

WRT to the 7th AD, it's not so much that none of them had seen experience. In fact, most of them had seen too much experience, and except for a brief rest in England to refit and retrain on the new Cromwells, many of them had been fighting pretty much straight through. This caused a situation where they were overconfident and idle. As the legend goes, Wittmann caught them while they were having a tea break. It sounds plausible enough, given how woefully unprepared for an attack they were.

But yes, it also helps to make the scenario play out somewhat like what actually happened.

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Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super

[Claus B]

Originally posted by Terence:

I was playing the Villiers Bogage scenario with Wittman in his one tank, and I was surprised to see that the British troops in that scenario were rated green and conscripts.

Were the elements of the British 7th Armored Division that Wittman faced really at that level, (Had none of Her Majesty's soldiers in action that day seen any action in North Africa and so on?) Or is their quality a flourish of the scenario designer so that a persistent player can duplicate Wittman's feat.

It is probably the latter.

Man for man, the troops of 7th Armoured Division that fought in Villers-Bocage were as experienced and tough as any of their opponents.

There is no arguing that that their advance from Villers-Bocage to Hill 213 was a somewhat bungled affair, but the tea-drinking is a myth as are so many other elements of the popular versions of this battle.

As for Villers-Bocage scenarios, many scenario designers use the "trick" of lowering the experience and morale of the British to a point where they flee at the mere notion of a loud bang. This is done to allow the player to replay Wittmanns initial drive into Villers-Bocage. In many cases, it is because the scenario designer is trying to re-create the battle according to popular myth, not to reality.

Mind you, I am not speaking about the scenario in question here, but in general terms.

As an example, Wittmann was by no means alone in his attack on the British troops and tanks on route N175. Oscha. Sowa claimed two British tanks during the attack and Oscha. Brandt claimed three British tanks and some carriers, facts which correspond well with the British accounts speaking of several Tigers moving paralell to route N175 and fire comming from the south at the same time Wittmann was driving down from the east. If the scenario designer includes these other Tigers moving on the flank of the British column instead of having one Tiger running the gauntlet down N175, I am shure that British can be made somewhat more resilient.

As for the 7th Armoured being "overconfident and idle" - that is rather simplistic. Undoubtedly there were some among the officers that were not quite up the task, but the real culprit seems to be that the division was operating according to what was "good form" in the desert and Italy and had problems adapting to the new conditions in Normandy. Much of their experience and standard procedures was not cut out for the realities of fighting among hedgerows and orchards.

This was seen again and again during the first battles of the division in Normandy and after Villers-Bocage the division as a whole was probably somewhat shook up.

But on the individual level, there was much courage and much profesionalism. The fact that the troops in and around Villers-Bocage managed to set up a solid defence and fight a long and hard battle for the village after Wittmann had left the scene, clearly shows that they were not easily intimidated - and the Germans learned that the hard way, loosing at least 4 Panzer IVs and 6 Tigers (some repairable) during the fighting.

And lets not forget that it was not Wittmann who evicted the British from Villers-Bocage. It took the bulk of 2. Panzerdivision (less its tracked elements), the 1. Kp/s.SS-PzAbt 101 and different elements of the Panzer Lehr including Ritgens battlegroup to the north to do that.

Claus B

[Warmaker]

If you see the Operation version of Villers Bocage, the German player does start with these additional Tigers. Conscript or not, you still have to be careful with Fireflies at 200m ranges.

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"Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima

[Guest Mike the bike]

I had thought that towards the end of the war a lot of British troops were not all that well motivated, although many were experienced.

Many of them had been fighting for a very long time, and there were almsot no replacements available - the Brits were reduced to disbanding artillery and AA units to provide manpower for infantry and armour!!

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Terence:

Were the elements of the British 7th Armored Division that Wittman faced really at that level, (Had none of Her Majesty's soldiers in action that day seen any action in North Africa and so on?)

Bit of both. The 7th was a veteran division of North Africa... which was part of the problem. The men were appearently tired of the war. The 7th was basically a crap division until after the breakout

[Jeff Duquette]

Claus B:

Great post Claus (as usual ). Lets also not forget the endeavors of 7th AD Lt. Bill Cotton and his exploits in Villers-Boccage following the infamous Wittmann romp. Cotton and his tiny band succeeded in destroying several Tigers and MkIV’s in the confined streets and narrow alleys of Villers. Cotton actually dismounted his Cromwell CS tank in order to ground guide his troops Tanks during this latter segment of the battle. After The Brits began to withdrawal Cotton snuck around to the Jerry Tanks he had KO’d and set them on fire in order to prevent them being recovered and repaired.

Cotton was apparently a bit of a character and actually wore a captured Luftwaffe flying jacket in combat…with an Iron Cross pinned to the Jacket! There is a great photo of him following the battle sporting his German flight jacket. The British incarnation of Kelly’s Hero’s “Odd-Ball”.

[Simon Fox]

Good stuff Claus.

Chuppy, back in the Cesspool with you mythologizer!

As Jeff said A Sqn 4th CLY got their arses kicked by Wittmann and a few of his mates and then later the same day B sqn 4th CLY (Bill Cotton and his troop at least) kicked Wittmanns arse. By all accounts A Sqn were attacked from the front of flanks by some Tigers and Wittmann in his from the rear.

As has been said it was the 7th ADs first Normandy battle and things weren't quite as tight as they could have been, the fact that some of their recon assets were still in the UK didn't help either. Their motor battalions got pretty shot up at Villers Bocage and later during Goodwood which explains some of their later problems. The tea story is sorta true though misleading. I think the regimental commander was up for an orders group at the time so many of the officers were away from their units.

I am not so sure that deficiencies in this unit would be entirely evident at the level of CM. I must admit I really don't like that Villers-Bocage scenario, it seems pretty "gamey" (ducks for cover) to make veteran troops green and conscript to acheive a "historical" result.

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"Stand to your glasses steady,

This world is a world of lies,

Here's a toast to the dead already,

And here's to the next man to die."

-hymn of the "Double Reds"

[Claus B]

Jeff mentioned Bill Cotton as one of the British heroes of that battle. Others you could mention were:

- Sgt. Lockwood and crew who took on Wittmanns Tiger in the center of Villers-Bocage, face to face in his Sherman Firefly. In a shoot-out worthy of any western movie, Wittmann was the one who choose to leave the field while Lockwood prevailed.

- Capt. Pat Dyas who managed to hide his Cromwell in a yard as Wittmann knocked out the other tanks of the 4th CLY RHQ. Then he moved out behind Wittmann in an attempt to stalk the Tiger from the rear. Unfortunately, when he ran into the Tiger, it was comming towards him as it was moving away from Lockwoods Firefly, and the Cromwell was knocked out.

- Lt DePasse who was on his way to the O-Group on Hill 213 when Wittmanns Tiger came thundering down the N175. Immidiatly he ran towards the vehicles of A Coy/1st Rifle Brigade in order to fetch a PIAT. He was mowed down by MG fire as he crossed the road in front of Wittmanns Tiger and is buried in cemetery at Tilly-sur-Seulles.

As Simon points out, the commanding officers of both 4th CLY RHQ, A Sqd/4th CLY and A Coy/1 Rifle Brigade were all either on Hill 213 or on their way up there, including the Cromwells of RHQ. It is probably this fact that caused the total confusion on N175. Taylor, in his book "Villers-Bocage through the Lens" has some drawings showing the exact positions of UK vehicles when Wittmann struck and it is evident that by coincidence, Wittmann hit at the worst possible time and worst possible place for the British.

Claus B

[Bry Barnard]

There's also a really good write up with maps and pictures in Eric Lefevre's "Panzers in Normandy - Then and Now", publ by After the Battle.

The maps show the movements of Wittman and the other Tigers (MkIVs maybe?) showing that he and the other German tanks watched the British approach and exit from Villers upto Hill 213 from cover on top of a railway embankment that ran parallel to the N17?.

Apparently he saw the Brits stop on the road out of Villers, saw them park up real close to each other and then went down on his own taking out the rear vehicle in the column and the front vehicle and then literally drove down the column with his gun traversed to one side taking out the lot! Because the Brits were parked so close to each other they couldn't deploy quickly enough. He also took out the 6lbers first. The Cromwells on Hill 213 didn't pose much of a threat and were quickly taken out.

I think that after that he went back down into the village and came across the Firefly, and after taking a few hits (why didn't he blow up?) he decided to back up and get some support.

It's a good article well worth a read.

[ColonelSquirrel]

I found the conscript and green thing kind of bad, the other problem I had there were a couple of shermans with no ammo, which made them good distractions. However I managed to knock out whitmann with a cromwell fairly early leaving me waiting for the rest of the german armor at the flag between those houses when low and behold the german tanks appaear out of nowhere about 5 feet away from my tanks. Nasty fight but I won because I had all my infantry and armor there anyway I thought that was kind of dumb that they reappeared right there apprently the designer didnt think the allied player would get lucky. Well thats my post to add to the discussion