Manx Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 Time for some more vehicles - this time it's the turn of the big Allied uber-tanks - the M26 Pershing, and T26E4 Super Pershing. IYO, what's the right way to use, tactically, these vehicles on the the CM battlefield?....and just as importantly...what's the wrong way?. Thanks to everyone who contributed to the SPW250-251 discussion yesterday. These comments have now been added to the site. Remember you can always send in comments via e-mail on the COMBAT MISSIONS site. TIA ps - i've just modded the site. If anyone has any problems viewing it please let me know. Cheers!. ------------------ COMBAT MISSIONS - Resources For Combat Mission [This message has been edited by Manx (edited 01-19-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>- Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 I don't understand? They is no proper way to use that beast on the battlefield. You just drive into the middle of the field, point and shoot. Germans go running home to Adolf. Its almost too easy. The Super Pershing is like the M1 Abrams fighting the T-72 in the desert. Its no contest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiram Sedai Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Johnson-<THC>-: I don't understand? They is no proper way to use that beast on the battlefield. You just drive into the middle of the field, point and shoot. Germans go running home to Adolf. Its almost too easy. The Super Pershing is like the M1 Abrams fighting the T-72 in the desert. Its no contest.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I tried the pershing vs tiger battle a couple of times and the super pershing brewed up quite nicely when facing a king tiger. In fact, 5 Supers vs 5 King Tigers netted me with 4 King Tigers alive and 5 dead Super Pershings. Mileage may vary for many of you. I'm about to try my 40 Stuarts vs 1 JaghdPanther tonight. ------------------ Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. - Blaise Pascal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 This is the tank that lets the allies feel what having a KT is like. Except the allied KT (Pershing/Super Pershing) is more mobile and has a much faster turret and more MGs. Note that it is only nearly invulnerable; an 88L71 can and will penetrate it from medium range, but usually after a few pings. And beware infantry, because a 'shreck will still do a number from any angle, albeit not 100% of the time. All in all, its appearance will make your opponent drop one in his shorts. WWB ------------------ Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say, Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 There is really no wrong way to use this tank. With the super pershing, try to avoid being flanked, because your turret speed isn't the greatest. One excellent strategy is to put it in your front line to absorb hits, then use cheaper tank destroyers such as hellcats to flank your opponent. This way you will have a three way flank, and your enemy isn't safe anywhere. ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 Super pershings can go head to head against king tigers, but ordinary Pershings really shouldn't, as their gun is less powerful and they have less armor. In a recent test I set up, 10 super pershings killed 10 king tigers in a head to head battle, losing 8 pershings. However, with regular pershings, the king tigers won, losing 5 of the ten. Oops, this was supposed to be an edit to the previous topic, not a reply. ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska [This message has been edited by 109 Gustav (edited 01-19-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pillar Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 The real key lies not in using any individual unit properly, but in integrating it with the rest of your force. While it may not be easy to loose a Pershing, there is certainly a "wrong" way to use it in terms of combined arms. Don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow 1st Hussars Posted January 20, 2001 Share Posted January 20, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Manx: Time for some more vehicles - this time it's the turn of the big Allied uber-tanks - the M26 Pershing, and T26E4 Super Pershing. IYO, what's the right way to use, tactically, these vehicles on the the CM battlefield?....and just as importantly...what's the wrong way?. Thanks to everyone who contributed to the SPW250-251 discussion yesterday. These comments have now been added to the site. Remember you can always send in comments via e-mail on the COMBAT MISSIONS site. TIA ps - i've just modded the site. If anyone has any problems viewing it please let me know. Cheers!. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Tatics eh? Other than drive it up a hill, watch the Germans bounce shells of it, have a tiger try to flank it, but the tiger's turret is to slow, so it brew's up at the hands of a pershing's fast turret, then roll it down the hill and kill everything in site? ------------------ No bastard has ever won a war by dying for his country. They won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>- Posted January 22, 2001 Share Posted January 22, 2001 bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manx Posted January 22, 2001 Author Share Posted January 22, 2001 Bump - Anyone else like to add any comments on the Pershing before i do the page? ------------------ COMBAT MISSIONS - Resources For Combat Mission Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 Hey Manx, what's your submission policy for mods? Is there a seperate email address or anything like that? All I could find on your website were Tiger's recent mods, but I'm assuming it's open to anyone. I'd like to send in my assault boat mod. http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/015252.html ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfe Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wwb_99: This is the tank that lets the allies feel what having a KT is like. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Just picking on your post for this response, so please don't take this personally, WWB , but ARE YOU PEOPLE OUT OF YOUR COLLECTIVE MINDS!?! Ok, got that out of my system. A Panther can kill the Pershing with a turret hit out to about 2000m. No, that's not a typo, and I didn't misplace a decimal point. The Persh is *not* the super-tank a lot of folks seem to think it is. In fact, if it weren't for the presence of tungsten, I'd call it the Allied equivalent of the Panther. It has very good hull armor, but its turret is quite weak. A StuG can even kill the thing with a shot through the turret at 500m. It does have a very good AT gun. But one of its best traits, IMO, is its usefulness against infantry. Real nice blast, and nice amount of HE ammo to boot. Its ROF is a bit slower than the Panther's, however. But it has a fast turret, so it's more likely to get the first shot off when facing a Panther, though the Panth will likely get the second. Its 3 MGs and loads of ammo for them make it a great inf killer. Also, a pair can level one of the heavy 2-story buildings in under 2 turns. As good as the gun is, I've still seen a Persh ricochet some AP shots off the front turret of a Panther at 1100m. And vice-versa. The rounded turret on both tanks can make for some surprising head-to-head outcomes. Its tungsten can surely kill anything the Axis can field, which is what makes it so much of a threat to enemy armor. Well, you'd have to get kinda close to the JagdTiger. But if you treat it as a Panther instead of looking at it as a nearly invincible KT, you'll likely have a lot more success against one. As for the Super, it has a low ROF, smallish ammo loadout, and even *its* turret can be punctured by the Panther at 700m and less. - Chris [This message has been edited by Wolfe (edited 01-22-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wolfe: Just picking on your post for this response, so please don't take this personally, WWB , but ARE YOU PEOPLE OUT OF YOUR COLLECTIVE MINDS!?! Ok, got that out of my system. A Panther can kill the Pershing with a turret hit out to about 2000m. No, that's not a typo, and I didn't misplace a decimal point. The Persh is *not* the super-tank a lot of folks seem to think it is. In fact, if it weren't for the presence of tungsten, I'd call it the Allied equivalent of the Panther. It has very good hull armor, but its turret is quite weak. A StuG can even kill the thing with a shot through the turret at 500m. It does have a very good AT gun. But one of its best traits, IMO, is its usefulness against infantry. Real nice blast, and nice amount of HE ammo to boot. Its ROF is a bit slower than the Panther's, however. But it has a fast turret, so it's more likely to get the first shot off when facing a Panther, though the Panth will likely get the second. Its 3 MGs and loads of ammo for them make it a great inf killer. Also, a pair can level one of the heavy 2-story buildings in under 2 turns. As good as the gun is, I've still seen a Persh ricochet some AP shots off the front turret of a Panther at 1100m. And vice-versa. The rounded turret on both tanks can make for some surprising head-to-head outcomes. Its tungsten can surely kill anything the Axis can field, which is what makes it so much of a threat to enemy armor. Well, you'd have to get kinda close to the JagdTiger. But if you treat it as a Panther instead of looking at it as a nearly invincible KT, you'll likely have a lot more success against one. As for the Super, it has a low ROF, smallish ammo loadout, and even *its* turret can be punctured by the Panther at 700m and less. - Chris [This message has been edited by Wolfe (edited 01-22-2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Wolfe is right on the money with this. The Pershing is a match for the Panther. The King Tiger can and does eat it for breakfast if it goes hot rodding around. 5 KTs and 5 Pershings for me netted 2 dead KTs and all Pershings dead on a standard map. The Pershing's reputation for being the baddest of the bad is because the German players usually have the edge with heavies. So on comes the Pershing and that advantage is gone. Now they have to hunt it like the Shermans hunted them. So for me, this is an E8, something to anchor your forces on, with good all round performance. If you face it, remember it costs a load, so a dead Pershing is a major deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Maenpaa Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 It's still good to remember that the Pershing has something that the German heavies totally lack: an ability to succesfully perform close combat. Thanks to the combination of fast turret and gyro, the Pershing can make fast dashes around tight spots/corners and survive. It can drive circles around the enemy tanks and then kill them. That is something you can't do with German tanks. With the Pershing you are not forced to seek for long firing lines. But if you do, you have a tank with formidable gun, good armor and pretty small silhouette. Ari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaker Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 A King Tiger killer? Methinks not. 5 Super Pershings vs. 5 King Tigers with regular crews always result with 5 dead M26's and maybe one brewed Koenigstiger. Two if the Allies were lucky. At 1K-1500m it seems to me the Koenigstigers gain even more of an advantage and seem more accurate (superior German optics perhaps?). The Pershing's 90mm gun and heavy armor is to be respected, don't get me wrong. But I'd gleefully throw a single Koenigstiger against even two Pershings for most situations. There's also no need for heavies to be "driving circles" around Allied armor, our guns do our "driving." But the Pershing's Anti-infantry capability I actually do find attractive. Now I've never played WITH the M26's but fought plenty against them. Use 'em to bear the brunt of AT fire to let your M36's and such to survive longer to take on the Big Cats with their good guns. Just don't be surprised when that Pershing brews due to German obsession with excellent AT weaponry... you can thank the Russians for that also. The 88's of the KT/Tiger I/ATG's are quite capable of punching through the front, albeit may require more rounds but the 75mm can still hurt alot, so you can't even count out the Panther medium tank and various 75mm equipped TD's. Jagdtiger's 128mm? No more comment on that. Treat the Pershing like an egg that happens to carry a good gun and you'll get good mileage just like any tank. Baby sit it cause it costs alot. If you Allied players always wanted to have the feeling of bringing a "Big Cat" realize also that it hurts the pocketbook too. ------------------ "Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima [This message has been edited by Warmaker (edited 01-23-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MantaRay Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 I think it is a "Super" Sherman. Still gets dead rather easily against any late German uber. But I do agree, it is an awesome inf support Tank, with the added ability of a good AT weap. But w/o a hit in 2 shots, better bail your crew, cause KT is not playing. Ray ------------------ When asked, "How many moves do you see ahead?", CAPABLANCA replied: "One move - the best one." Click now for shelter from the Peng thread The Red Army of the Rugged Defense Group Ladder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Maenpaa Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 Originally posted by Warmaker: A King Tiger killer? Methinks not. 5 Super Pershings vs. 5 King Tigers with regular crews always result with 5 dead M26's and maybe one brewed Koenigstiger. Two if the Allies were lucky. At 1K-1500m it seems to me the Koenigstigers gain even more of an advantage and seem more accurate (superior German optics perhaps?). The Pershing's 90mm gun and heavy armor is to be respected, don't get me wrong. But I'd gleefully throw a single Koenigstiger against even two Pershings for most situations. CM DOESN'T model any bonuses for the better German optics. This means that a gun's muzzle velocity ONLY is counted in accuracy calculations. KT's gun's velocity is 1018m/s and SP's 976m/s, so a very small difference here. BUT SP has slow ROF. When the distance gets longer and accuracy for the first shot declines, the bracketing effect comes in. The faster the ROF the shorter the time a tank needs to focus in it's target. This makes the KT a better tank of the two on long ranges. Under 1000 meters range they are pretty even when SP doesn't have tungsten rounds. Jagdtiger also suffers from slow ROF. The ultra slow ROF (3 rounds/min) makes it a lousy long range shooter. Historically, I believe, JT's excellent optics helped a lot to decrease this drawback. After all it was designed to do long range AT-duty. But in CM, it seems, a Stuart is practically taken more accurate long range shooter than JT. It hits the distant target faster than JT. There's also no need for heavies to be "driving circles" around Allied armor, our guns do our "driving." But the Pershing's Anti-infantry capability I actually do find attractive. Not always is the terrain/weather such that close range tank duels can be avoided. Regular Pershing's fast turret makes it a very good tank regardless of circumstances. It is always a good choice contrary to the German heavies. Ari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaker Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 Well, this time I've been playin' with the M26 and I still find it's gun respectable but the 88mm I still prefer. Again the armor being good and comparable to the Tiger I it's not as thick skinned as the Tiger II. Oh yeah, I also tried that Elsdorf scenario as U.S. then Germany. Even the PzKpfw IVJ's punched through with their 75mm guns... through the FRONTAL armor to my surprise. Tungsten, schmunsten... But playing as Germany I lost 2 of my Tiger Is when I the Pershings came rolling through the fire and smoke of burning Shermans. Backed the Tigers out after those casualties and brought out the King Tiger to take the Pershings on. Let's just say it earned it's "King" status on the battlefield that day. Still, I'd prefer to have Pershings than most Sherman variants. But for a pure AT role the M36 and the excellent Firefly are much preferred and cheaper. ------------------ "Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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